Keir Starmer - FoM now a red-line

HolgateCorner said:
I agree in the short term but was more thinking there needs to be an overall plan to get better value out of the NHS and better wages for nurses and other staff can be part of that.

Only Labour could achieve proper reform of the NHS, the Tories, even though they know they can’t openly admit it, are ideologically opposed to a health system where a poor person gets treated exactly the same as a rich person. They can’t get their greedy heads around that.

Its a massive vote winner for Labour if they do it right.
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The Tories voted against the formation of the NH.S and have opposed it ever since, they just dare not say it out loud. As recently as 2010 it was still seen, even by other people as the best public health system in the world. I wonder, what has changed since then?

But even then, from 1948 to 2010, a poor person didn't get treated exactly the same as a rich person and the gap in the inequality of treatment has only increased. There are thousands and thousands more people going private, due entirely to the waiting times, which these b******s give not one jot about, increasing seemingly month on month. There is an article about it in the Guardian today.

Now, we get to the point, where the revolutionary vanguard of the trade union and Labour movement, the RCN has been forced to take action the RCN for chrissake. What on earth have we come to, when even according to some polls 32% of voters would still vote for this bunch of scum buckets?

Apparently, you are meant to get more Tory as you get older. I'm glad to say, that hideous mutation seems to have missed our house. I didn't think it would be possible, but I hate the Tories more now than I ever have.
 
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gregorgregorovich said:
The Tories voted against the formation of the NH.S and have opposed it ever since, they just dare not say it out loud. As recently as 2010 it was still seen, even by other people as the best public health system in the world. I wonder, what has changed since then?

But even then, from 1948 to 2010, a poor person didn't get treated exactly the same as a rich person and the gap in the inequality of treatment has only increased. There are thousands and thousands more people going private, due entirely to the waiting times, which these b******s give not one jot about, increasing seemingly month on month. There is an article about it in the Guardian today.

Now, we get to the point, where the revolutionary vanguard of the trade union and Labour movement, the RCN has been forced to take action the RCN for chrissake. What on earth have we come to, when even according to some polls 32% of voters would still vote for this bunch of scum buckets?

Apparently, you are meant to get more Tory as you get older. I'm glad to say, that hideous mutation seems to have missed our house. I didn't think it would be possible, but I hate the Tories more now than I ever have.
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You can’t get life saving emergency care privately, if a private hospital has an emergency they call for the NHS.

Doesn’t matter whether you are old, young, rich, poor the NHS will do it’s best for you in an emergency. You don’t need your credit card out to pay for the ambulance to collect you when you are in trouble.

It’s a fantastic thing and too precious to allow the Tories to kill it with an insurance system.

Labour need to get their think tanks on it and come up with a proper plan to make it better than ever, the business case is watertight, a healthy population and workforce is essential to the efficient running of industry and the country.
 
HolgateCorner said:
You can’t get life saving emergency care privately, if a private hospital has an emergency they call for the NHS.

Doesn’t matter whether you are old, young, rich, poor the NHS will do it’s best for you in an emergency. You don’t need your credit card out to pay for the ambulance to collect you when you are in trouble.

It’s a fantastic thing and too precious to allow the Tories to kill it with an insurance system.

Labour need to get their think tanks on it and come up with a proper plan to make it better than ever, the business case is watertight, a healthy population and workforce is essential to the efficient running of industry and the country.
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Don't disagree with much of what you say, but A&E is only one part of the NHS and whilst the rich might initially be seen to in A&E, they won't stay there long. Harley Street will see to that. The NHS is, in my mind the greatest creation of any Government anywhere in the world, if we accept the founding premise of the NHS that it should be available to everyone who needs it, we should make the social case for it and not be talking about business models. In my opinion, all that will do is reduce the ability to provide what it is supposed to do, provide world class health care, irrespective of anyone's ability to pay.
 
I would imagine Reeves isn't saying anything because the Tories haven't made an offer. if she stated 9% the Tories could give 10% and that would be a disaster for Labour. Saying 'We would give a better deal than the Tories' but not providing the figure plays into the hands of the RW media's Labour are bad for the economy line as Reeves' statement would not be costed.

Better to say nowt.
 
MolteniArcore said:
I would imagine Reeves isn't saying anything because the Tories haven't made an offer. if she stated 9% the Tories could give 10% and that would be a disaster for Labour. Saying 'We would give a better deal than the Tories' but not providing the figure plays into the hands of the RW media's Labour are bad for the economy line as Reeves' statement would not be costed.

Better to say nowt.
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Then she needs to explain where the money comes from. It's not difficult. The problem is that NO politicians seem capable of being honest with the public about how government spending works.

If Reeves said she'd fund the 19% pay-rise needed to get nurses back to 2010 pay-levels then the Tories giving 20% is a win for Labour. They will have forced the Tories hands. Something Corbyn was able to do many times because he actually acted as an opposition and gave concrete positions.

The idea that Labour should keep quiet and let the Tories damage people's lives further so that they're even more toxic is utterly ridiculous. Something that could only have been dreamt up by the comfortably-off.
 
Scrote said:
Then she needs to explain where the money comes from. It's not difficult. The problem is that NO politicians seem capable of being honest with the public about how government spending works.

If Reeves said she'd fund the 19% pay-rise needed to get nurses back to 2010 pay-levels then the Tories giving 20% is a win for Labour. They will have forced the Tories hands. Something Corbyn was able to do many times because he actually acted as an opposition and gave concrete positions.

The idea that Labour should keep quiet and let the Tories damage people's lives further so that they're even more toxic is utterly ridiculous. Something that could only have been dreamt up by the comfortably-off.
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I am sure she could explain where the money would come from:

"We would offer the nurses 15% over 2 years. This would cost £**b and we would fund this by **** ****** *****"

Then the Tories come along as say they will do 16% over 2 years. They don't need to explain where the money is coming from - they are in power and not held to the fiscal scrutiny that Labour are. The Tories win that exchange as they have given a better award than what Labour promised.

Forcing their hand isn't a win politically - it will be forgotten about in 2 years, but what won't be was the Tories giving them a bumper pay rise.

Just saying they would do better and it would be funded by *** *** *** is obviously just going to get people saying 'yeah, of course you would'.

Labour don't need to do anything other than what they are doing - pressuring the Government to negotiate. That's all that can be done. Throwing around figures prior to negotiations isn't helpful to anyone.
 
Starmer's purge of left wing Jews continues. This time it's Naomi Wimbourne - Idrissi, founder of JVL. Elected to the NEC in September, suspended immediately and now expelled. Apparently she was informed by the right wing media who were fed the news.
 
MolteniArcore said:
it will be forgotten about in 2 years, but what won't be was the Tories giving them a bumper pay rise.
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What is the end-goal for Labour?

If a bumper pay rise for nurses isn't a victory then what is?

If Labour managed to get the Tories to implement Labour policy across the board without being in power then surely that's a massive bonus.

Having a manifesto to keep referring back to would help, not hinder.

Anything else is in through-the-looking-glass territory.

As AndyW says, the UK is going to elect the Tories 2/3 of the time anyway. So if Labour force their position on the Tories then that can anly push politics and society to the left.

Is that not a fight worth fighting?
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Starmer's purge of left wing Jews continues. This time it's Naomi Wimbourne - Idrissi, founder of JVL. Elected to the NEC in September, suspended immediately and now expelled. Apparently she was informed by the right wing media who were fed the news.
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Didn't she speak at a far left groups conference after she had been told not too? I don't know the details but I think it was resist, a group banned by labour. 2 sides to every story.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Starmer's purge of left wing Jews continues. This time it's Naomi Wimbourne - Idrissi, founder of JVL. Elected to the NEC in September, suspended immediately and now expelled. Apparently she was informed by the right wing media who were fed the news.
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Why has she been expelled?
 
On the subject of the NHS exiled, Javid was on the news, I think this morning, saying we need to look at alternative funding models for the NHS. ******.
 
Laughing said:
Didn't she speak at a far left groups conference after she had been told not too? I don't know the details but I think it was resist, a group banned by labour. 2 sides to every story.
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HolgateCorner said:
Why has she been expelled?
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She was originally suspended for speaking at a Resist meeting after it had been proscribed. However, resist is not a far left movement and one has to question whether they and other groups should be proscribed at all in a Democratic Socialist party.
However, other Jews have been kicked out for interacting with these groups before they were proscribed, which is a failing of natural justice and is at odds with free speech. People have been suspended for liking posts or retweeting tweets from the Green Party for goodness sake.

Labour’s rules say “proscribed acts” include “possessing membership of, providing financial assistance to, sitting on the ruling body of or otherwise supporting (as may be defined by the NEC) any political organisation that the NEC in its absolute discretion shall declare to be inimical with the aims and values of the party”.

However, Christian Wakeford, a man who was actually a Conservative politician was accepted into the Labour Party last January when he expressed his wish to cross the floor. By May he was appointed PPS to the shadow secretary for education and on 1st November he was made a Labour Whip.

Do people who defend Starmer at every turn not feel alarmed at how he treats Jews who support Palestine, or at his total lack of support for Muslim women MP's like Apsana Begum and Zara Sultana? Begum in particular has had a torrid time of it. A victim of domestic abuse and of an attempt by her ex husband and his friends on her local council to have her jailed for fraud (she was found innocent) which lead to long time sick absence, but during that time and since, she has never had a word of support or encouragement from Starmer. He has never contacted her.
 
MolteniArcore said:
Win the election
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Right. So winning is the end-goal and then nothing. Just a continuation of Tory policy.

Glad we've cleared that up.

MolteniArcore said:
It is a bonus, but then why would they need to win an election? Just keep the tories in.
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It isn't ever going to happen but IF the Tories exclusively enacted a socially-democratic series of reforms then why would Labour need to win the election?

If everything you campaign for gets done then, other than personal ambition to be PM or Chancellor etc. what else do you want to achieve?
 
Scrote said:
If everything you campaign for gets done then, other than personal ambition to be PM or Chancellor etc. what else do you want to achieve?
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Yes, it is a quandary. For me it would be trust. We've had 12 years of lies and feathering their own pockets. They need to go. So no point keeping them in even if they suddenly discover a conscience and give the nurses a pay award.

It's all hypothetical anyway. The Tories will find a way to shaft the nurses regardless. Sadly we have endure this pain until the next GE.
 
Scrote said:
So why are people (yourself included) suggesting that the reason Labour need to keep quiet about funding pay-rises is so they don't get out-flanked?

It's one or the other. It can't be both.
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I think it's better they do keep quiet but I wouldn't be too fussed if they did put a figure on it. I'm not sure why we are arguing about stuff like this anyway - it's the Government who have the power to stop this, not Labour. Yes, they can apply pressure but I think they already are.

I am focussing my anger at the Conservatives who could end the nurses strike just by negotiating. Just by sitting in a room with the Union and being prepared to TALK. No promises of pay rises, just to talk. If they won't even do that I don't think it would make any difference if Labour came out with a figure or not.

SuperStu said:
Cultists. 🤷‍♂️
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Come on Stu, aren't we trying to have a proper debate? Or are we back to name calling? Scrote finds it funny.

Doing things like that give the impression you aren't really concerned with the plight of the nurses, you are using it to continue your anti-Labour arguments (again). Then you and Scrote have a little chuckle and probably think you are bering clever.


We all want the nurses to get a pay rise. You guys think that Labour should do more. Fair enough, I don't think they can or should. And that isn't because I love Starmer, it's because the Tories don't care about the optics or the pressure so Labour banding around figures wouldn't make any difference.

If the Tories cared they would have opened talks and stopped the strikes.

There is a common enemy here, not sure why you want to fight against your allies.
 
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