Keir Starmer - FoM now a red-line
- Thread starter Scrote
- Start date
The figure requested by the nurses is above inflation because it includes catch-up for all the below inflation rises they have had during the Tory governments. A simple "do you agree that nurses deserve to be paid as much today as they were in 2010" is a question that they should already know the answer to. They have argued for above inflation rises every year when the Tories have offered the opposite so did they mean it or not? They don't even need to know the figure. They should be able to say whether public sector workers should be getting pay rises to match inflation, to beat inflation or to be below inflation. Whatever inflation is in a given year is irrelevant, should anyone be given annual wage cuts or not?
The only reason the nurses request seems so exorbitantly high is because of a decade of cumulative pay cuts. If the nurses were asking for true reparation it would be even higher because it would be 19% increase to salary plus a one-off payment for the cumulative losses. If they just got the 19% they'll be on an equivalent 2010 salary going forwards but they'd have still lost 12 years of pay increases.
The only reason the nurses request seems so exorbitantly high is because of a decade of cumulative pay cuts. If the nurses were asking for true reparation it would be even higher because it would be 19% increase to salary plus a one-off payment for the cumulative losses. If they just got the 19% they'll be on an equivalent 2010 salary going forwards but they'd have still lost 12 years of pay increases.
As above. 19 as requested.
Or as per my previous post, if the Shadow Chancellor really didn't want to commit to a figure just agree with the principle that Labour are better for nurses wages than the Tories. Why would that be practically stupid?If Labour win the next general election, would you expect them to give nurses a better pay deal than the tories? If the answers yes, then it can't be stupid to say so now. We're meant to live in a representative democracy. Hiding policies shouldn't be as normalised as it is. If the answer is no, then what's the point of the party?
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
I fail to see how any political ground can be lost by Labour for stating that they would better the Tories offer to the nurses. It costs nothing, and will convince tens of thousands of workers that Labour is on their side, but to refuse merely creates the impression that Labour have no intention of increasing the offer. It baffles me.As above. 19 as requested.
If Labour win the next general election, would you expect them to give nurses a better pay deal than the tories? If the answers yes, then it can't be stupid to say so now. We're meant to live in a representative democracy. Hiding policies shouldn't be as normalised as it is. If the answer is no, then what's the point of the party?
If Labour commits to a better offer for nurses the question will shift to the RMT and then the rest of the public sector. A non-committal 'trust us' dog whistle may not be the most open and honest approach, but it's electorally preferable to painting a target on your own back.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
But how many nurses vote Tory? Probably more than you think.As above. 19 as requested.
If Labour win the next general election, would you expect them to give nurses a better pay deal than the tories? If the answers yes, then it can't be stupid to say so now. We're meant to live in a representative democracy. Hiding policies shouldn't be as normalised as it is. If the answer is no, then what's the point of the party?
If Labour get the Tories to blow themselves out in terms of pay offers they can go into the next election offering something better and new and properly start hoovering up the votes from the Tories.
That's the point though. Refusing to even say in principle they'd do better than the tories isn't a "trust us" message. It's the opposite.
BlindBoyGrunt
Well-known member
The next GE may be a couple of years away. It is the duty of the opposition and party of the working people to state its own position and pressure the government to move on wage rises, not to play games.
I dunno I think that backfires. You're essentially saying wait until the matter appears resolved to the public and then have Labour step in to try and reopen it. I doubt that goes down well.
Also means that you're waiting for the pandemic to feel even longer ago, and you're giving the tories attack dogs in the media more time to poison people against strikes.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
It is but for the sake of working people we really really must get the Tories out of government and it’s hard with the finely tuned right wing propaganda machine in the U.K. and I do think Labour (and voters) have to start playing clever. And I agree no games but always with an eye on the main objective.
I agree with that. I suppose the crux of my point is that the best chance for Labour to eventually overcome the right wing propaganda machine is to consistently put out left wing messages. I don't agree that the shadow chancellor repeating tory mantra back at right wing media interviewers helps anyone.
Andy_W
Well-known member
No, he doesn't and Labour doesn't either, as A, they're not in power and B they won't be in power for at least two years.
Then, either way, the figure would get shot at by the Tory press for being too high, and the far left would say it's too low, and no matter what it's jumping into a pointless hole. It's like casting out the bait and then jumping in the water thinking you're going to get a free lunch with no repercussions. Any figure Labour did list would need to be costed, and to do that would pretty much need a manifesto and to put that out now would be political suicide.
Just put pressure on the Tories to give the nurses more than the Tories are offering (and say the final deal isn't enough), as we all know that's not going to be enough.
Labour aren't in government, they're there to provide the opposition and are currently about 80 seats short.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
I agree in the short term but was more thinking there needs to be an overall plan to get better value out of the NHS and better wages for nurses and other staff can be part of that.
Only Labour could achieve proper reform of the NHS, the Tories, even though they know they can’t openly admit it, are ideologically opposed to a health system where a poor person gets treated exactly the same as a rich person. They can’t get their greedy heads around that.
Its a massive vote winner for Labour if they do it right.
Read the thread. Thats what has been said multiple times now. The point being discussed is that Reeves for some reason refuses to say Labour would give a better offer than the tories.
Andy_W
Well-known member
It's not that simple though is it, not in the world where the UK votes Tories in 2/3rds of the time?
I get the 2011-2021 figure, which should be made up and they should have striked sooner to get that to be honest, but there is no way that everyone in public employment (or private employment) can be paid to match current inflation. What happens if (when) we end up with deflation (which is predicted 2024-2027), will people give the money back and not ask for raises then?
There is a price to pay for voting in the tories for 15 years, brexit, covid, the war, high inflation, energy prices etc, and we know who is going to pay that. Thinking everyone can get out of this scot-free (or even on the same money) is a pipe dream, the only way it would be possible would be by crippling some other areas, wrecking the economy even more or taking on even more debt, and the country is already up to the hilt after the last few years. It just would not be worth it or possible, and even if it was it would be a short-term gain for a lot more long-term pain. Either through going more skint or letting the tories back in.
I think they certainly should be paid to keep them in line with where inflation would have been up to 2021, which would be about 10%? Then say another 3% for this year, and 3% next year. To catch the rest up would likely only be possible with a pay rise which is index linked to a "normal rate" (plus some, say 1%), once we're through this super inflation. So that get's the pay to almost current, but then a one off payment to cover what they missed out on by being shafted for 10 years.
The below shows up to 2021, so 10% should get most back to level par for 2011-2021, before inflation went mental?
Last edited:
Andy_W
Well-known member
You don't know what the Tories offer is yet though (or what they and the Nurses end up agreeing on)?
so the risk is the tories might actually be more generous than Labour you're thinking?
ThePrisoner
Well-known member
If Labour did that the tories would immediately make an outrageously generous offer to the nurses but then obfuscate and scupper it themselves with some p!ss poor lie, then remind Labour every day that they promised to better the tory offer. People have such short attention spans they won't remember why the offer was never put in place, only that Labour said they would better it.
That's how snakes roll.
Gosh how awful. We'd end up with well paid nurses. Perish the thought.