.

I'm no fan of Starmer but the lengths people go to to twist everything he says is getting ridiculous and doesn't do their argument any favours. It just looks bitter.
I honestly think the only thing that has stopped a Labour Government getting into power for the past 40 has been the Liberal Democrats.. so I can see the sense in moving Labour into those realms to win an elections.

I do feel very bitter though, how Labour MPs fought so hard against their own members and their own constituents. Labour for me should be a vehicle for the left.. unfortunately Blair’s ‘third way’ politics has meant that we have an American system now of right or further right.

Lots of talk on the left of solidarity and organisation.. but being honest about it there is no such thing. How many factions are there now? It appears that the left would rather argue the smaller points than work together to achieve the big goals, the big wins.

Saying that.. if the left does organise outside of Labour (which it should) it will only serve to split the vote away from Labour in the same way the Lib Dems have.

Labour playing Tory to beat them at their own game.. didn’t do enough when they could for my liking.
 
No, I don't just want a win, I want what is possible AFTER you win, for the next 5-10 years or whatever.

I see the likes of Blairs time, as much better than the time of Cameron, May, BJ, Truss, Sunak etc, maybe you think they're the same, but I don't.

You're closer to enabling the Tories than I am, as you're the one who wants to enable them to lead, I voted for your guy, twice, don't forget, without complaint. Where are you going to vote?

Sure the centre/centre-left vote will still fail half the time, that's what happens in a right leaning country, or a country influenced by far right press. But it's better than failing all of the time. You can call it less worse if you like, it doesn't bother me, but what is guaranteed worse, is the guys in blue having a majority.

You're trying have and eat all of a cake which does not even exist, it's never existed, I wish it did, but it doesn't. So I move onto the next best thing, otherwise known as reality. Now we're back in the real world, I would rather at least have the cake in our possession, and have some of that, rather than just let the guy sat in blue on the other side have the lot, and give it to his mates who have been stuffing their faces for what will be 15 years.
Hang on.

You’re saying I’m - or some of us - are closer to enabling the Tories than you are… despite you openly endorsing and supporting a leader who has said he will do what the Tories are doing only a *slightly* less reprehensible way? He is literally telling you he is going to be doing crackdowns, just like the government. He is saying it to your face and you are choosing not to believe him.

This thing about voting for ‘your guy’ etc, I’ve voted for Blair in the past. Supported Brown, Miliband, Corbyn. Supported Starmer at the start because we were told it wasn’t about policy, it was about personality and electability. We were told there was nothing really wrong with what Labour were offering, it was just that one couldn’t eat a bacon sandwich and the other was a terrorist-sympathiser who hates Jews.

Nobody said anything about stripping everything away. Nobody said anything about matching the government’s ugly rhetoric, it’s spitefulness. If we’d been told this then maybe people wouldn’t be so angry? Maybe people are warning you that this current leader has lied to the public, to the party and to the media every single day and that maybe you should be careful about thinking he won’t lie to you too when the time suits him? I find it fascinating that you’re choosing to ignore everything he’s said and done in the belief he’ll stop doing it later. No Labour leader has done this before.

I’m amazed that people think politicians lying and being secretive about policies until after they’re elected is somehow a good thing, and that opposing it or expressing concern about it is somehow worse than actually doing it.
 
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Yes, right wingers. See post #282. Words have meanings Andy. Someone can be in the Labour party and still be right wing.
Indeed.

They’re going to great lengths to insist that there must now be a Labour government at all costs. At all costs. Just not those costs. And that anyone who doesn’t vote Labour is a Tory enabler. Apart from us, obviously. Only you, the plebs.
 

I mean maybe my ears don’t work?

You’re essentially saying what I said anyway, he doesn’t really mean it! Just let him win and then he will back the teachers and all the other underpaid professions, we promise, it’s all about winning!

Also I have not mentioned Corbyn on here for ages, I’ve moved on in the sense that I know he isn’t coming back. He’s the man that really fired me up to get into politics and I think he has been treated woefully but that has nothing to do with how I feel about Starmer and the current Labour Party.
Maybe they don't work because he doesn't criticise teachers there at all. Granted he doesn't support them either but he's got splinters in his **** because he's trying to avoid the trap. Whether he's right to or not is another debate, but saying "both sides need to compromise" is about as much on the fence as you can get.

I think you're hearing what you want to hear.
 
More twisting I see, your argument might have more validity if you stopped twisting things maybe?

So, lets stick with the facts, and what is closer to reality....

He mentioned his pledges in the leadership campaign, as you all acknowledge as you said he's gone against the pledges he campaigned based on. Ok, glad we now agree on that, thank you.

Keir Starmer made his ten pledges during his campaign to become the leader of the UK's Labour Party. He announced the pledges on February 23, 2020, during his campaign launch in Manchester. The ten pledges were designed to set out his vision for the Labour Party under his leadership, and they cover a range of policy areas, including climate change, workers' rights, and public services.

So, if he made them on Feb 23, I would say it's fair to assume they were created around Jan/ early Feb, yes? Ok.

The WHO declared a pandemic, roughly three weeks after, on 11 March 2020, and it's fair to assume that Kier Starmer would not have expected what came in the next two years, not many did, certainly not in Feb 2020.

We had 23 confirmed cases in the UK on 23 Feb 2020, do you think he should have been making pledges based on a pandemic which was not yet declared? How well do you think this pandemic was being modelled then, when it took about a month after this to even get a rough model with a lot of variables, with estimated values? How do you then figure out what problems this will cause economically? Were you working for SPI-M? Was Starmer?
He didn't just make these pledges, he painted them as reflecting his own moral makeup when he said:-

"My promise to you is that I will maintain our radical values and work tirelessly to get Labour in to power – so that we can advance the interests of the people our party was created to serve.

Based on the moral case for socialism, here is where I stand."

Now, tell me which of these pledges would have to be dropped due to Covid or the war in Ukraine?

 
No, I don't just want a win, I want what is possible AFTER you win, for the next 5-10 years or whatever.

I see the likes of Blairs time, as much better than the time of Cameron, May, BJ, Truss, Sunak etc, maybe you think they're the same, but I don't.

You're closer to enabling the Tories than I am, as you're the one who wants to enable them to lead, I voted for your guy, twice, don't forget, without complaint. Where are you going to vote?

Sure the centre/centre-left vote will still fail half the time, that's what happens in a right leaning country, or a country influenced by far right press. But it's better than failing all of the time. You can call it less worse if you like, it doesn't bother me, but what is guaranteed worse, is the guys in blue having a majority.

You're trying have and eat all of a cake which does not even exist, it's never existed, I wish it did, but it doesn't. So I move onto the next best thing, otherwise known as reality. Now we're back in the real world, I would rather at least have the cake in our possession, and have some of that, rather than just let the guy sat in blue on the other side have the lot, and give it to his mates who have been stuffing their faces for what will be 15 years.
I can't believe anyone could write so much and yet say so little.

In some respects you have a point that if you want to win you have to reflect what the electorate want. Maybe if Labour were massively behind in the polls and they had to try and gain some credibility you'd have a point but you are completely wrong with where you think Labour can be successful in the current climate. The Tories are currently unelectable to the point anyone could beat them. There is no need to become a right wing party just to win at the moment because there is no opposition.

All of that is irrelevant though. I can't fathom how anyone could have such faith that Starmer will deliver what you want him to deliver in the short or long term. He is not brave enough to tell us what he believes in and he's changed his mind on everything he's ever said so I have no idea how you can have any belief that he will win and then move to where you want him to when the likelihood from the evidence he's so far provided is he will move wherever he thinks he can find more votes and that is more likely to be further right than left.

In a 2 party system if you can base yourself on the opposite side then the opposition has fewer potential voters. That means that he is more likely to move towards the right to win votes which pushes everyone further right. That is an incredibly dangerous situation for normal working people to be in. How you can have the gall to claim that I or other left wing voters are Tory enablers is astounding. You are not only going to vote for a left wing party to move to the right but you're even championing it as the right thing to do.

I don't believe you are stupid but your arguments for that position are idiotic.
 
If those in the Labour party don't align with the direction Labour members voted to take, and what their current public vote clearly support, then why should they remain in their position? Undermining the party basically concedes control to the Tory alternative.
So you're acknowledging that the centrists ceded control to the Tories?

Finally something we agree on...
 
The Tories have made manifesto pledges meaningless over the last 13 years. So what is the point, at this moment, of indulging them…that’s why they’re screaming for Labour’s plans.
It’s also driving them, and their newspaper friends fckin nuts. For the time being fck’em up
 
I can't believe anyone could write so much and yet say so little.

In some respects you have a point that if you want to win you have to reflect what the electorate want. Maybe if Labour were massively behind in the polls and they had to try and gain some credibility you'd have a point but you are completely wrong with where you think Labour can be successful in the current climate. The Tories are currently unelectable to the point anyone could beat them. There is no need to become a right wing party just to win at the moment because there is no opposition.

All of that is irrelevant though. I can't fathom how anyone could have such faith that Starmer will deliver what you want him to deliver in the short or long term. He is not brave enough to tell us what he believes in and he's changed his mind on everything he's ever said so I have no idea how you can have any belief that he will win and then move to where you want him to when the likelihood from the evidence he's so far provided is he will move wherever he thinks he can find more votes and that is more likely to be further right than left.

In a 2 party system if you can base yourself on the opposite side then the opposition has fewer potential voters. That means that he is more likely to move towards the right to win votes which pushes everyone further right. That is an incredibly dangerous situation for normal working people to be in. How you can have the gall to claim that I or other left wing voters are Tory enablers is astounding. You are not only going to vote for a left wing party to move to the right but you're even championing it as the right thing to do.

I don't believe you are stupid but your arguments for that position are idiotic.
You can ignore the numbers all you want, just like Corbyn did, ignorance might be bliss to you, but for those in the real world, it certainly isn't.

Labour were behind in the polls because the previous guy lost twice, and was luke warm on remain, which helped the leave and far right uprising. You can't use the reason we've got the polls back, as a reason to go back to the way they were crap to start with, that makes zero sense, and would probably mean a much lesser win, no majority, or losing a second term which is going to be critical. The second term is going to be just as important as the first.

The tories are unlectable, now, from what the previous idiots did, but it will likely be closer come election time, in the same way that remain assumed they would walk the brexit vote. The Tories were poor, and proven poor, when Corbyn took over, got worse by the time he had his first election and were the worst I've seen by the time of the second, yet he still didn't win, and Labour didn't get any of their 3 targets. Labour didn't even get close on seat numbers and then got battered in the second attempt. A loss isn't second place, it might as well be last place, as you get little say, and zero actions.

I've got faith in Starmer as he understands the tactics and maths of it at least, and without that you've got nothing. As a party they will come up with a manifesto which will be electable against the tories, and likely massively differ from the Tories. If it doesn't I'll say you're right, but it won't be happening. Some aspects may be similar in each of their manifesto's, but that's unavoidable, in some areas Labour and Tories do want similar things, or at least in the Tory case they say they do, where as Labour actually do. Two parties can enact the same policy very differently.
You had (and somehow still have) faith in Corbyn, who lost two elections and who was "running" the supposed red wall when loads of them voted leave, and you still want to go back to that, it's madness, it's proven not to work.
You don't have faith in Starmer as he's not Corbyn, and because of 10 pledges which became outdated in about 10 minutes, this isn't his fault, things changed, a bigger problem is your tunnel vision and lack of reality.

Starmer doesn't need more votes, he's got plenty, and as time moves closer election confidence will increase, and thus they can narrow down their vision. Sunak will probably hoover up some of the votes which Starmer currently has, and it won't be the left ones, so Labour will probably win with less voters on the right side of Labour now (the political centre). Labour will then probably set their manifesto on centre left, to suit the core of their vote, and retain those swing voters who are crucial to actually winning.

You don't have any evidence that Starmer will put in less left or centre left Policies than Corbyn, actually, it's a certainty that Starmer can't put in less, as Corbyn was proven to enable zero. There's no Labour or Tory manifesto and Labour have not won yet, never mind had 5 years to change anything. The only evidence we have is that Corbyn lost twice and was running the "red wall" when a lot of the red wall voted out. By the time of the election that will be 10 years of Tories since Corbyn took over in 2015. Sure, two of those years he was in opposition because of Millibands loss, but Starmers having to pick up the pieces of 5 years due to Corbyns last loss.

The two-party system you mention only exists if there's right and left only, but the comment you make on that helps me understand where you're failing to understand now. It doesn't work if there's left, centre left, centre, centre right and right people, with left or right choices only. The country is weighted with a heavily central bias, that probably leans right through media influence. Tories get in power more times as they hoover up these centre voters (by Tories and the press lying to them), they're swing voters and their vote is worth more equity-wise.

I think I know what you're getting at, by only giving up enough ground to still win, but there's extreme risk on that, and this appears to be your second choice. Your first choice was seemingly Corbyn, and he didn't what you're seemingly proposing now. He tried to move people left I suppose, but he didn't succeed at doing it, and it allowed the UK to move way further right. Had he targeted the centre or been a better leader then he may have been able to win, but he didn't do either.
 
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So you're acknowledging that the centrists ceded control to the Tories?

Finally something we agree on...
No the left did, the MP's and leader, being steered by the left memebers, by not acknowledging the centre exists.

Labour, under Corbyn didn't do any of what his voters wanted, he didn't win. He didn't do what his party wanted, as he didn't win. He ignored enough of the centre, so they voted for the other side, which meant he didn't win. He also was also in charge of the supposed red wall when loads of it voted leave, digging massive hole which Starmer now has to try and climb out of, and you're trying to give him a shovel, not a ladder.
 
You can ignore the numbers all you want, just like Corbyn did, ignorance might be bliss to you, but for those in the real world, it certainly isn't.

Labour were behind in the polls because the previous guy lost twice, and was luke warm on remain, which helped the leave and far right uprising. You can't use the reason we've got the polls back, as a reason to go back to the way they were crap to start with, that makes zero sense, and would probably mean a much lesser win, no majority, or losing a second term which is going to be critical. The second term is going to be just as important as the first.

The tories are unlectable, now, from what the previous idiots did, but it will likely be closer come election time, in the same way that remain assumed they would walk the brexit vote. The Tories were poor, and proven poor, when Corbyn took over, got worse by the time he had his first election and were the worst I've seen by the time of the second, yet he still didn't win, and Labour didn't get any of their 3 targets. Labour didn't even get close on seat numbers and then got battered in the second attempt. A loss isn't second place, it might as well be last place, as you get little say, and zero actions.

I've got faith in Starmer as he understands the tactics and maths of it at least, and without that you've got nothing. As a party they will come up with a manifesto which will be electable against the tories, and likely massively differ from the Tories. If it doesn't I'll say you're right, but it won't be happening.
You had (and somehow still have) faith in Corbyn, who lost two elections and who was "running" the supposed red wall when loads of them voted leave, and you still want to go back to that, it's madness, it's proven not to work.
You don't have faith in Starmer as he's not Corbyn, and because of 10 pledges which became outdated in about 10 minutes, this isn't his fault, things changed, a bigger problem is your tunnel vision and lack of reality.

Starmer doesn't need more votes, he's got plenty, and as time moves closer election confidence will increase, and thus they can narrow down their vision. Sunak will probably hoover up some of the votes which Starmer currently has, and it won't be the left ones, so Labour will probably win with less voters on the right side of Labour now (the political centre). Labour will then probably set their manifesto on centre left, to suit the core of their vote, and retain those swing voters who are crucial to actually winning.

You don't have any evidence that Starmer will put in less left or centre left Policies than Corbyn, actually, it's a certainty that Starmer can't put in less, as Corbyn was proven to enable zero. There's no Labour or Tory manifesto and Labour have not won yet, never mind had 5 years to change anything. The only evidence we have is that Corbyn lost twice and was running the "red wall" when a lot of the red wall voted out. By the time of the election that will be 10 years of Tories since Corbyn took over in 2015. Sure, two of those years he was in opposition because of Millibands loss, but Starmers having to pick up the pieces of 5 years due to Corbyns last loss.

The two-party system you mention only exists if there's right and left only, but the comment you make on that helps me understand where you're failing to understand now. It doesn't work if there's left, centre left, centre, centre right and right people, with left or right choices only. The country is weighted with a heavily central bias, that probably leans right through media influence. Tories get in power more times as they hoover up these centre voters (by Tories and the press lying to them), they're swing voters and their vote is worth more equity-wise.

I think I know what you're getting at, by only giving up enough ground to still win, but there's extreme risk on that, and this appears to be your second choice. Your first choice was seemingly Corbyn, and he didn't what you're seemingly proposing now. He tried to move people left I suppose, but he didn't succeed at doing it, and it allowed the UK to move way further right. Had he targeted the centre or been a better leader then he may have been able to win, but he didn't do either.
Wow, so much inaccuracies to unpick so I'll make it brief:
1. Labour lost for 2 reasons. Brexit and Corbyn.
2. Corbyn's policies were extremely popular but he himself wasn't.
3. This current lot is the same lot as under Boris. Sunak was number 2, he was fined for partying with him. There is no distance between them.
4. Your faith in Starmer is only on his ability to win. We all have faith in that because he is fighting a dead dog. Your faith that he will deliver anything to improve the lives of anyone is more worrying. He is a proven liar so you can't trust any if the promises he makes. Everything in your post is based on assumptions and wishful thinking and is completely at odds with anything Starmer has said or done.
 
Like a lot of others I really liked the 2017 manifesto, so did my late friend, who was a Swedish Social Democratic city politician to the left in the party.
So did his friend, a Norwegian CDU MP, who he sent it to.
But I never believed that Jeremy Corbyn would ever become PM and form a government.
That manifesto scared some people to death…not particularly its contents but an indication of what the other unwritten things that could be done in time.
That really couldn’t be allowed.
 
No the left did, the MP's and leader, being steered by the left memebers, by not acknowledging the centre exists.
If those in the Labour party don't align with the direction Labour members voted to take
At least try to be self-consistent. You can't have it both ways.

The centrists betrayed their members by not aligning with the direction they clearly (and repeatedly) showed they wanted to take.

Had the centrists worked towards a Labour government in 2017* we would be in a far better place than we are now.


*and/or 2019 but that wouldn't have been necessary if they'd done it in 2017
 
You can ignore the numbers all you want, just like Corbyn did, ignorance might be bliss to you, but for those in the real world, it certainly isn't.

Labour were behind in the polls because the previous guy lost twice, and was luke warm on remain, which helped the leave and far right uprising. You can't use the reason we've got the polls back, as a reason to go back to the way they were crap to start with, that makes zero sense, and would probably mean a much lesser win, no majority, or losing a second term which is going to be critical. The second term is going to be just as important as the first.

The tories are unlectable, now, from what the previous idiots did, but it will likely be closer come election time, in the same way that remain assumed they would walk the brexit vote. The Tories were poor, and proven poor, when Corbyn took over, got worse by the time he had his first election and were the worst I've seen by the time of the second, yet he still didn't win, and Labour didn't get any of their 3 targets. Labour didn't even get close on seat numbers and then got battered in the second attempt. A loss isn't second place, it might as well be last place, as you get little say, and zero actions.

I've got faith in Starmer as he understands the tactics and maths of it at least, and without that you've got nothing. As a party they will come up with a manifesto which will be electable against the tories, and likely massively differ from the Tories. If it doesn't I'll say you're right, but it won't be happening. Some aspects may be similar in each of their manifesto's, but that's unavoidable, in some areas Labour and Tories do want similar things, or at least in the Tory case they say they do, where as Labour actually do. Two parties can enact the same policy very differently.
You had (and somehow still have) faith in Corbyn, who lost two elections and who was "running" the supposed red wall when loads of them voted leave, and you still want to go back to that, it's madness, it's proven not to work.
You don't have faith in Starmer as he's not Corbyn, and because of 10 pledges which became outdated in about 10 minutes, this isn't his fault, things changed, a bigger problem is your tunnel vision and lack of reality.

Starmer doesn't need more votes, he's got plenty, and as time moves closer election confidence will increase, and thus they can narrow down their vision. Sunak will probably hoover up some of the votes which Starmer currently has, and it won't be the left ones, so Labour will probably win with less voters on the right side of Labour now (the political centre). Labour will then probably set their manifesto on centre left, to suit the core of their vote, and retain those swing voters who are crucial to actually winning.

You don't have any evidence that Starmer will put in less left or centre left Policies than Corbyn, actually, it's a certainty that Starmer can't put in less, as Corbyn was proven to enable zero. There's no Labour or Tory manifesto and Labour have not won yet, never mind had 5 years to change anything. The only evidence we have is that Corbyn lost twice and was running the "red wall" when a lot of the red wall voted out. By the time of the election that will be 10 years of Tories since Corbyn took over in 2015. Sure, two of those years he was in opposition because of Millibands loss, but Starmers having to pick up the pieces of 5 years due to Corbyns last loss.

The two-party system you mention only exists if there's right and left only, but the comment you make on that helps me understand where you're failing to understand now. It doesn't work if there's left, centre left, centre, centre right and right people, with left or right choices only. The country is weighted with a heavily central bias, that probably leans right through media influence. Tories get in power more times as they hoover up these centre voters (by Tories and the press lying to them), they're swing voters and their vote is worth more equity-wise.

I think I know what you're getting at, by only giving up enough ground to still win, but there's extreme risk on that, and this appears to be your second choice. Your first choice was seemingly Corbyn, and he didn't what you're seemingly proposing now. He tried to move people left I suppose, but he didn't succeed at doing it, and it allowed the UK to move way further right. Had he targeted the centre or been a better leader then he may have been able to win, but he didn't do either.
I think I've understood what you're trying to say here but again you are massively contradicting yourself.

If Corbyn had zero power to influence anything how was he "running" the red wall?

If he was "lukewarm" on Remain, why did the red wall abandon him to pursue Leave?

How did 10 pledges to support social change become outdated? Nothing in those pledges is outdated NOW. Can you explain, even for just one of those pledges, why it is no longer relevant or achievable?

There also appears to be a huge amount of projection (not just from yourself) onto the left insofar as there being a messiah complex. I won't (and haven't) voted for Corbyn, just because he's Corbyn. As mentioned in another thread, if Corbyn joined the Green party, I wouldn't vote green because of that. Corbyn has gone. The policies that Corbyn proposed were sensible and necessary. Starmer won the leadership on a promise to continue with them (as the public were on-board it was just Corbyn they didn't like, supposedly).

Starmer pushed the Remain stance that lost the red wall.

Starmer abandoned the policies that had proved popular.

Starmer needs to convince people like me that he will do something to win my vote.

Labour didn't even get close on seat numbers and then got battered in the second attempt.
This is just cherry picking a specific metric with no context.

At a minimum, 1118 voters switching from Tory to Labour could have enabled a Corbyn led coalition in 2017.

The numbers aren't disputed. You can argue that realistically you'd need a larger swing across the populace but that 1118 votes would have made all the difference.

When you consider that the centrists were predicting a rout then the idea that even seats weren't close is just political revisionism.
 
How did 10 pledges to support social change become outdated? Nothing in those pledges is outdated NOW. Can you explain, even for just one of those pledges, why it is no longer relevant or achievable?
Another inconsistency in @Andy_W 's insistence on policies changing because things have changed is that he ignores the biggest change. The Tories have made themselves completely unelectable and so the tactic of abandoning the workers, the left and any socially minded policies in search of Tory voters isn't necessary anymore.
 
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