Borobarmy
Well-known member
Erm without getting enveloped in an argument , the Irish Famine was indeed greatly exacerbated by Britain who could have prevented much suffering in their occupied 'territory'
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Celtic fans
- Thread starter Colin Warnek
- Start date
Oh, the irony.
CheshireBoro
Well-known member
Its very easy to conflate 2 very complex issues here.
Booing a minute's silence is always going to upset the overwhelming majority of people - and thats the risk with having them really. Remembrance commemorations are more important in the UK than anywhere on earth in my experience.
BUT, Irish nationalists see the British as being an occupying force, literally. For many in NI (and Celtic identify themselves in that way, as a "Celtic" club), the British are the enemy.
For some people, asking them to respect that minute's silence is like asking Americans to respect an act remembering the Taliban's fallen few.
Its THAT emotive. I dont agree with them, but I can see how and why it has evolved that way.
Booing a minute's silence is always going to upset the overwhelming majority of people - and thats the risk with having them really. Remembrance commemorations are more important in the UK than anywhere on earth in my experience.
BUT, Irish nationalists see the British as being an occupying force, literally. For many in NI (and Celtic identify themselves in that way, as a "Celtic" club), the British are the enemy.
For some people, asking them to respect that minute's silence is like asking Americans to respect an act remembering the Taliban's fallen few.
Its THAT emotive. I dont agree with them, but I can see how and why it has evolved that way.
indeedido
Well-known member
And this is the point. It is for "some people".
I don't remotely believe they represent the majority of Celtic's supporters. This particular "some people" behave without respect. Their behaviour is crass, obnoxious and deliberately confrontational, and they deserve the contempt they provoke.
Can we not as a society allow peaceful acts or ceremonies to pass without disrupting them and having our say over the top of it every time?
jam69
Well-known member
When did rememberence Sunday become such a massive thing?
Came through Yarm today the whole high street decked out in poppies.
We showed due respect to the fallen for a century before this bling fest started.
Were we not respectful enough for the last 90years?
Came through Yarm today the whole high street decked out in poppies.
We showed due respect to the fallen for a century before this bling fest started.
Were we not respectful enough for the last 90years?
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Capybara
Well-known member
When it became a competition. It used to be that there would be a minute's silence at a match if it happened to fall on 11th. Then it happened if there was a match on the weekend of Remembrance Sunday. Then you had to have one even if you weren't playing that weekend so it turned into a three-week 'event'. Then it became about which club could produce the biggest display and on and on it goes. The humble act of remembrance has been turned into a mine's-bigger-than-yours fest.
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Redwurzel
Well-known member
Partly true the British Government should have shown more compassion and support - but the potato crop was completley wiped out and very quickly in the West of Ireland by a plant virus (blight) that was nothing to do with the British authorities. Without the blight there would have been no major famine. The population was around 90% dependent on the potato for its diet and had increased tremendously in the 100 years up to the famine, so much so the West of Ireland was one of the most densly populated parts of Europe (hard to believe I know). Again the British Government can't be be blamed for the huge population increase, which was not sustainable without the potato. My source is Famine Museum in Roscommon (ROI), funded mainly by the Irish Government. The legacy of the famine has partly fanned the flames of radical Irish nationalism for at least 150 years (up to the end of the Troubles). One third of the population in the West of Ireland died in the famine (1847-50) it was exceedingly traumatic and probably the fear of its return encouraged Irish emigration for another 50 years after.
The Green brigade do a lot to create atmosphere at Celtic games, but some of their political messages is not helpful to bringing peace and harmony to the Island of Ireland.
CheshireBoro
Well-known member
Most people can, yes. but there are people who dont want to. What I am saying is that their reasons for not wanting to, or feeling able to are incredibly strongly held - and just because I/we might not agree with them, their views are no less important to them.
Having watched the footage, you can see that there are many/most Celtic fans who look really uncomfortable with the people who make the noise and sing. It's by no means the majority of Celtic fans that do this - but it is a significant number.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
CB - I think Catholic Irish would be a better description than "Celtic" club. The Cornish and Welsh call themselves celtic too.
Irish Nationalists is a pretty broad term. Nowadays I was say its mainly radical Nationalists that see the British Army as the enemy and moderate Nationalists have accepted power sharing in Northern Ireland and the existence of NI and with it a small British military force in NI to fight terrorism.
Prior to 1919 the Island of Ireland provided up to 25% of the British Army - hence the large number of Irish Regiments, many died fighting for Britain (that included what is now Republic of Ireland). the vast majority was not conscripted. In more modern times many people from the Republic of Ireland have been in the UK Armed Forces. I worked with a guy who did 25 years in the RAF (1965-1990).
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wilkos_perm
Well-known member
Couldn't agree more. I would've thought quiet contemplation would be the appropriate action not over the top token gestures.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
I was been deliberately short to make a quick point about more extreme views, after a long and eventful day. I am not a politician or a diplomat.
Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
We already have ceremonies at every cenotaph in every village in the country. It's not as if there's no chance of paying respects.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Ref Poppy wearing - Its always celebrated but the one minute silnece at football games is a bit more recent. In fact one minute silences at games is more common full stop than say in the 1970s and 80s.
Possibly society is more sensitive to death, as early deaths in life have become less common, prior to Covid.
I become more sensitive to memorials connected to WW1 and WW2 after conducting family research and finding relatives who had died in those wars or from the fall out of those wars.
Possibly society is more sensitive to death, as early deaths in life have become less common, prior to Covid.
I become more sensitive to memorials connected to WW1 and WW2 after conducting family research and finding relatives who had died in those wars or from the fall out of those wars.
Muttley
Well-known member
Competitive Remembrance is kind of an ironic dismissal of everything that the sacrifice of those who served died for. Of giving ones life for the freedom of others now we have to compete to be the most manifestly "rememberancing".
I was walking t' dog around the block last night and some numpty on my street has erected two red illuminated life size silhouette of soldiers in his front garden. We have poppy broaches and ginormous poppies for cars and buses and truck. In Cockerton village in Darlo they have erected a NEW war memorial on the green with a NEW memorial bench it is surrounded by great big (50cm high) poppies attached to the surrounding fence. I've lived here for about 25 years and in Darlo for longer and there was never a memorial here, there is one in the town centre, that's enough "Remembrancing" for the whole town surely? There is a church in one of the Durham villages with a net of hundreds of poppies cascading from a window. The poppies on football shirts and ceremonies two weeks before the day. Etc. Etc.
How does any of this make the lives of our ex-Servicemen any better? We have many of them suffering unaided and undiagnosed from PTSD from recent conflicts but we remember the fallen of the two world wars more overtly and with greater pantomime than in any time since. I wear a poppy and stand silent with everyone else but FFS this is just hypocritical theatre and part of the comforting lie of British Exceptionalism and jingoistic Nationalism so beloved of many who never served and whose contribution to national life has to been to vote away many of the benefits and freedoms won with the blood of our fathers and grandfathers.
I was walking t' dog around the block last night and some numpty on my street has erected two red illuminated life size silhouette of soldiers in his front garden. We have poppy broaches and ginormous poppies for cars and buses and truck. In Cockerton village in Darlo they have erected a NEW war memorial on the green with a NEW memorial bench it is surrounded by great big (50cm high) poppies attached to the surrounding fence. I've lived here for about 25 years and in Darlo for longer and there was never a memorial here, there is one in the town centre, that's enough "Remembrancing" for the whole town surely? There is a church in one of the Durham villages with a net of hundreds of poppies cascading from a window. The poppies on football shirts and ceremonies two weeks before the day. Etc. Etc.
How does any of this make the lives of our ex-Servicemen any better? We have many of them suffering unaided and undiagnosed from PTSD from recent conflicts but we remember the fallen of the two world wars more overtly and with greater pantomime than in any time since. I wear a poppy and stand silent with everyone else but FFS this is just hypocritical theatre and part of the comforting lie of British Exceptionalism and jingoistic Nationalism so beloved of many who never served and whose contribution to national life has to been to vote away many of the benefits and freedoms won with the blood of our fathers and grandfathers.
Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
Hear, hear.
wilkos_perm
Well-known member
I get that much of the rememberence day stuff centres around the sacrifices made by British soldiers, and there's nothing wrong with that at all, but so many of our population are totally apathetic towards the suffering of those in wars and internal conflicts all over the world that are happening right now. It just doesn't sit right with me.
indeedido
Well-known member
None of this is the point really.
Why can’t people respect a minutes silence that the majority are happy to observe?
Randy
Well-known member
JM14
Well-known member
nothing in that post to suggest he wont respect it, but the point is very valid. I doubt most people even know the real meaning of this anymore, its been completely taken over as more of a political gesture than anything else over the last few years
indeedido
Well-known member
I never claimed Muttley wouldn't respect it, I was asking why the Green Brigade (or anyone else) can't and why Muttley wants to give their behaviour a pass.