BoroMart
Well-known member
yin and yang.
The Coventry fans had their joy taken away; Man Utd fans had joy enjoying the goal being chalked out and laughing at Cov fans.
Coventry v Man Utd
- Thread starter GibbosEmpire
- Start date
The Coventry fans had their joy taken away; Man Utd fans had joy enjoying the goal being chalked out and laughing at Cov fans.
changingman
Well-known member
If offsides are to be semi-automated in future, will that improve the experience for fans in the stadium? Presumably an automated decision could be relayed in real time (I know it sounds daft but a klaxon or something?)
Muttley
Well-known member
Of course it is, I was using dramatic exaggeration to make the point.
That's not football drama though is it? It is a manufactured nonsense which for those in the ground was a period of staring at a big telly waiting to be told what had happened, no replays in case that gets them agitated or inflames passions please. Just a respectful hush whilst we discuss the positioning of a toe.
What could be more fun than that? (there be sarcasm here)
If the linesman had flagged, the goal would never have been scored and we wouldn't have thousands of football fans upset that the matchday experience is worse.
It depends what you value more..... as close to 100% correct decisions as possible or a game that flows with a far superior live experience. I think there's far more people in the latter than the former. I can honestly say I have never once wished that VAR would be used in the Championship since it was introduced and the more times stuff like this happens, the stronger I start to oppose it. I can live with borderline decisions going against my team. It's part of football and happens at every level, right from grassroots junior football through to semi pro and the elite levels. It's just part of the game.
I'm not against a system that stops the absolute howlers, and I doubt many people would be. Had he been two yards offside yesterday and missed by the official then there wouldn't be an uproar. But analysing off-sides to the point that one was yesterday is ruining it for most people. For me if you watch a replay at full speed with no lines and it's not clear whether it's onside or off-side then it should just stay with an on-field decision.
Abel Tasman
Well-known member
I get that argument but there are photos all over Twitter this morning of the line being drawn in the incorrect place and over Wan Bissaka foot. Now this may not be truly accurate but you have to draw a line a micro millisecond correct. The point is, it was far too close to call and the goal should've stood in my opinion.
BoroMart
Well-known member
So what you are calling for is a degree of personal opinion turning a rule into an interpreted opinion.....but at the same time, everyone wants consistency of the rules which cannot occur if you allow personal interpretation.
As long as we all use the same system, then the rules are evenly applied. That system is VAR. I've seen the some images where the line "overlaps the boot".....but I believe these are the lines that have been thickened up for TV viewer consumption. A thinner more accurate line is used in the VAR room, and that is on the end of the boot. It's a misunderstanding from the twitterati, about what they are perceiving, used to meet their own predetermined ideas about wanting too see the big team beaten and wanting to complain about VAR.
The line is just a visual representation. The referee in the VAR room is not drawing a line. They are using a pixel picker to select the closest part of each player towards the goal and the computer works out the rest. Whether that line was 1 pixel or 1 metre wide would make no difference, it is only visual. Two points are chosen and the computer says point 1 or point 2 is closest to the goal. If that is the defender then it is onside, if it's the attacker then it is offside. It is a binary decision and it doesn't matter how big the margin is (technically they can be level but they have to be on the same lateral pixel width line).
Without VAR the linesman might have flagged. They don't flag if it is close when using VAR to prevent attacks being incorrectly stopped.
I can honestly say that I curse the fact that we don't have VAR in the championship almost every single game because far too many games are decided by incompetent officials and we have a solution to assist them in making better decisions. Referees getting things wrong is part of the game but it shouldn't be to the extent that it is. There are so few goals scored in a football match that one being given incorrectly or not given when it should has a massive influence on the outcome of the game. I want the team that deserves to win to win and not where the coin toss of referee decision making has landed.
Offside is such an easy one to agree with that I really struggle to believe anyone is against it. It isn't a subjective decision, you are either on or off and he was off and VAR has got it correct. I am almost certain people are so outraged today because it was Coventry scoring that goal and going on to lose and not the other way around.
Abel Tasman
Well-known member
But did it? Pixel picker or not it doesn't look accurate! Flag stayed down would have been good for me.
Cardiffdaffs
Well-known member
We dont want it in the championship because most fans hate it.Repeat it sucks the fun and spontaneous joy out of the game. That is more important than the accurate to the millisecond calls on offside sorry.
I understand that, and had it been flagged play would have stopped or they would have scored with the flag being unnoticed but the majority of the fans + TV commentators would have seen the flag and therefore realised the goal wasn't going to stand. Instead of having a minute of jubilation, to be followed by total dismay. The whole situation would be avoided. Miles better than what actually unfolded.
They even out over a season and there aren't as many bad decisions as what people make out.
People are definitely more outraged because of the game situation. The fact a really special FA cup moment was ruined. For all intents and purposes those players were level. Nobody could give that as off-side with the naked eye. If that was shown without lines, people would have accepted that goal.
You might struggle to believe that other people don't agree with your obsession of getting borderline offsides 100% correct at the expense of being able to truly celebrate goals as the ball hits the net, but that is the reality. The majority don't want it.
BoroMart
Well-known member
The images I've seen are accurate
Either way, I'm not petty enough to worry about. Just accept the decision. It's part of sport. We've all whinged about decisions both playing or watching football but I would better the referee is right more often than the fans/players/managers are.
If you haven't been promoted or you've been relegated over 46 matches then you deserve it.
I'm trying to work out where the outright rejection of something that hasn't really been a major issue since the first season of VAR has come from. I'm still 100% convinced it is because of the teams involved. I even celebrated it a bit myself and was also disappointed that it was disallowed but I accept that it was disallowed correctly and it would make a mockery of the system if we let it stand because we're only allowed to make decisions the linesman would have made anyway.
If the offside was an automated decision and it raised the flag in real-time, as it does when a linesman puts it up, would you accept the decision?
If yes, then the decision itself isn't the problem but the speed. What's the max delay that would be "reasonable"?
Is the decision incorrect, i.e. do you disagree that it was offside?
If you do then maybe that's where you have to accept that the technology is better at it than you are.
What distance offside does a player have to be before you deem it an obvious error?
Whatever distance you choose remember that the unacceptably small margin we already have will not be acceptable for you when determining offside at the new point either.
If you categorically know a player is offside but you allow it because you have a sizeable built-in margin for error then why would anyone be happy about that when you have the information available to make the correct decision?
Is correctly disallowing goals so fans celebrate when they shouldn't really worse than preventing goals from happening in the first place when linesmen incorrectly flag for an offside that was clearly on?
The VAR rules means more goals are scored. It means more are disallowed as well but none are incorrectly prevented from happening due to incorrect offside calls.
viv_andersons_nana
Well-known member
“none are incorrectly prevented from happening due to incorrect offside calls.”
I can think of at least three off the top of my head.
There might have been a few but we're talking about several years worth of fixtures. I'd like to see those examples though.
There are none that wouldn't have happened anyway whether VAR was there or not. There's still no preventing linesmen being massively wrong.
I've just said in the other thread that I would be more inclined to accept it if the feedback was instant and the linesman flagged within seconds. Like what happens with goal line technology.
But we don't have that system. The current system is sh1t
Because I think most people would accept that for all intents and purposes, those players were level yesterday. There was no advantage gained. The distance would be contentious. It needs to be a distance where a player looks off-side to the naked eye and anyone looking along the line can see it is obviously off-side. The players don't have those lines on the pitch to judge whether they are on or offside. It's basically the Wenger rule but rather than using "clear daylight" you are using a measurable distance. 300mm seems sensible but I'm sure they could use a load of data from borderline decisions to work out a sensible number.
Yes, with the amount of time taken to get those decisions, I believe it is worse. But like I said earlier, I think people would accept the ones where they are a yard off and it's an obvious error. Obviously it would happen far less often.
Muttley
Well-known member
The decision must be as "instant" as the linesman raising his flag. I have no problem with technology, the goal-line tech is obviously working well (though even that has had the odd hiccup). I accept that nothing is or can be perfect which is where I diverge from the VAR cheer leaders. The delay, pause, call it what you want is unacceptable and I am prepared to see the inevitable mistakes when we rely solely on human judgement. If offside can be "automated", bring it on. But this delay "pending review" is killing the spectacle.
viv_andersons_nana
Well-known member
You said there were none but I can think of Arsenal v Brentford, Spurs v Liverpool, Juventus v Salernitana. All had goals incorrectly ruled out for offside despite VAR being in use.
I bet you do as you are sat at home watching it on your dodgy box.You can get up and make yourself a cup of tea while they are deliberating.
Actually going to the games and being in the stadium you have very little idea what is going on. Get rid of it and ban any manager that complains about it wanting it back.