Electric cars Depreciation

[SilentProf]

It’s not a huge inconvenience no. It’s an inconvenience if you have to maximise your time but if you’re stopping for a wee anyway then you’re only adding about ten mins on. And the rarity of the journeys is the key: losing a few mins when you do a long journey can be offset by the massive savings and fuel, tax, servicing etc when using the car day to day. Each to their own I guess. To some people saving say 20 minutes a year is worth spending the extra £1000s on to maintain an ICE

You’re dealing in absolutes and not considering other people’s circumstances. I said it CAN BE a huge inconvenience. You have clearly decided it’s worth it and doesn’t inconvenience you. That’s great for you but if someone else has to queue for half an hour before they even plug in, that’s not a quick toilet break and could potentially make a trip not worth bothering with. Your answer to this seems to be that it isn’t a genuine scenario and that the goalposts are simply being moved when the technology catches up instead of some people needing a 300 mile range before they will consider an EV a good purchase and others needing a 400 mile range.

 

[Andy_W]

You do talk some absolute nonsense Andy. Toyota was used as an example of a manufacturer making huge investment and giant strides with hydrogen.

You can say that all you like, doesn't make it relevant or true.

What Toyota say or even do with hydrogen powered vehicles is completely irrelevant to our market, there is no way to fuel them, no hydrogen infrastructure, and nor will there be for cars before 2050 at least, as it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and the cost would be ludicrous. They aren't going to be moving it around by tanker for cars either, again it makes no sense when the "problem" is already solved by BEV's, and the solution will get better over time with more BEV infrastructure, faster charging on the road, and a greener grid. This will make it harder and harder for hydrogen to enter the market, in Europe at the very least.

Toyota will not do a Telsa and just put out their own infrastructure, it's at least 10x more difficult and costly with hydrogen, than electric and they simply would not spend the money when they've only sold 22k hydrogen cars in 10 years, and they sell about 10 million cars per year. There are no plans for hydrogen pipelines across the country, or at least I've never seen any tenders for any in 16 years.
Toyota have and are developing more BEV's than hydrogen. Never mind that hydrogen is always going to cost more than the electric for an EV, it's impossible for this to not be the case, hydrogen ends up costing around the same as petrol, so it's already onto a loss.

 

[Laughing]

You can say that all you like, doesn't make it relevant or true.

What Toyota say or even do with hydrogen powered vehicles is completely irrelevant to our market, there is no way to fuel them, no hydrogen infrastructure, and nor will there be for cars before 2050 at least, as it doesn't make any sense whatsoever and the cost would be ludicrous. They aren't going to be moving it around by tanker for cars either, again it makes no sense when the "problem" is already solved by BEV's, and the solution will get better over time with more BEV infrastructure, faster charging on the road, and a greener grid. This will make it harder and harder for hydrogen to enter the market, in Europe at the very least.

Toyota will not do a Telsa and just put out their own infrastructure, it's at least 10x more difficult and costly with hydrogen, than electric and they simply would not spend the money when they've only sold 22k hydrogen cars in 10 years, and they sell about 10 million cars per year. There are no plans for hydrogen pipelines across the country, or at least I've never seen any tenders for any in 16 years.
Toyota have and are developing more BEV's than hydrogen. Never mind that hydrogen is always going to cost more than the electric for an EV, it's impossible for this to not be the case, hydrogen ends up costing around the same as petrol, so it's already onto a loss.

Again, a load of bollox mate. I mean not withstanding that my reply to you never addressed any of the things you just regurgitated.

Firstly I was responding to your stupid post about using Toyota to knock ev's. That makes the rest of your post nonsense.

But let's look at your post. In 2015 with government grants, in a single year Toyota invested 15 billion in hydrogen cars. I know this as I worked for Toyota for quite some time during this period. This is a huge investment and had carried on, I don't know at what level, I stopped in 2017 working with them.

Know what, I really can't be bothered arguing with you. You read a Web page or two make up your mind and that's the end of it for you. There is literally no point in having a debate with you I would rather bang my head against a brick wall.

 

[Andy_W]

You’re dealing in absolutes and not considering other people’s circumstances. I said it CAN BE a huge inconvenience. You have clearly decided it’s worth it and doesn’t inconvenience you. That’s great for you but if someone else has to queue for half an hour before they even plug in, that’s not a quick toilet break and could potentially make a trip not worth bothering with. Your answer to this seems to be that it isn’t a genuine scenario and that the goalposts are simply being moved when the technology catches up instead of some people needing a 300 mile range before they will consider an EV a good purchase and others needing a 400 mile range.

You don't seem to be considering others circumstances either mind, or the majority who would be the target market for an EV (those with off street parking typically).

It's probably best to compare average users to other average users, or most to most, but there will always be extremes where the model does not fit, but that could work out for almost anything.

Sure, an EV could be an inconvenience, but for most that may practically be nil, if they charge at home, and quite a few like myself will be less inconvenienced. There will always be some where it won't suit, who drive crazy miles, don't stop and who don't understand zap map, but most of that is personal problem rather than a flaw with the system. I've never had to queue for a charger in 3 years, sure I'm probably a rarity in that, but I would always just pick fast chargers which appear to be free, before I even stopped, it's not difficult.

I've spent plenty of time waiting in queues for fuel stations, but never really bring it up as it's really not often a problem, it works both ways. I've never had to queue on my drive though, and bet most EV owners have not either.

How many people NEED 300 mile range, my guess is <5%, but lets say that's 10%, so there's still 90% out there where ST is closer to the truth than yourself. The only time I would consider myself needing 300 mile range was if I was driving a 300 mile round trip each week, without stopping, and that was the main miles I did. I don't really know anyone who does this mind, other than away fans, but that's a tiny, tiny minority.

The number of people choosing to not to go on a 300-400 mile trip, for the sake of 30 minutes (even if it was that), would be <10% of the 10% too I expect. That doesn't seem to be a huge inconvenience, not unless you're also adding up the 15 min journeys for petrol as an inconvenience also. Never mind the 400 miles probably cost £50-100, rather than £3 for 200 miles out, and even £20 for electric back at higher rates. For "most people" that 30 minutes in a the queue is probably the best hourly rate they will ever be paid, because of what they're saving.

 

[Andy_W]

Again, a load of bollox mate. I mean not withstanding that my reply to you never addressed any of the things you just regurgitated.

Firstly I was responding to your stupid post about using Toyota to knock ev's. That makes the rest of your post nonsense.

But let's look at your post. In 2015 with government grants, in a single year Toyota invested 15 billion in hydrogen cars. I know this as I worked for Toyota for quite some time during this period. This is a huge investment and had carried on, I don't know at what level, I stopped in 2017 working with them.

Know what, I really can't be bothered arguing with you. You read a Web page or two make up your mind and that's the end of it for you. There is literally no point in having a debate with you I would rather bang my head against a brick wall.

What are you going on about?

Saying "one line, makes the rest nonsense", itself is complete nonsense

What have Toyota or the public gained from that £15bn, they've not sold next to any hydrogen cars, and there are zero signs they're going to sell any in our market. Can't fuel a car if there's next to no infrastructure, and in the last 10 years infrastructure has even been cut by ~50%. It says a lot that you're talking from 2015-2017, would have thought they would have had plenty of hydrogen cars for sale now huh? Their hydrogen sales are ~4k per year, and they sell ~125k EV's, and plan on that being 1.5m EV's by 2026.

You do you though, get yourself a hydrogen car from Toyota, or don't, as they don't sell one in the UK. Bang your head against a hydrogen car if you can find one

 

[SmallTown]

You’re dealing in absolutes and not considering other people’s circumstances. I said it CAN BE a huge inconvenience. You have clearly decided it’s worth it and doesn’t inconvenience you. That’s great for you but if someone else has to queue for half an hour before they even plug in, that’s not a quick toilet break and could potentially make a trip not worth bothering with. Your answer to this seems to be that it isn’t a genuine scenario and that the goalposts are simply being moved when the technology catches up instead of some people needing a 300 mile range before they will consider an EV a good purchase and others needing a 400 mile range.

I’m not dealing in absolutes which is why if I said if saving 20 minutes a year is more important than saving lots of money then fine, go for it. The problem I have is a huge issue has been made of something that either effects very few people or effect everyone for hardly any time. Yet it seems to be the biggest “argument” against buying an EV. Which makes no sense.

 

[Redpete]

When I suggested the EV to the Mrs the 1st thing she said was it has to get me to Coventry without needing to charge.
If it was me I wouldn't worry about stopping but she also mentioned last night about being a lone female in a service station possibly in the dark and the charging points are often out of the way.
It very difficult to argue with those concerns and we dont really have a viable alternative at the moment other than her car.
We obviously also have a budget in that we wouldn't want too shell out too much on a new car as I said that may not do the job.Plus no one is made of money these days.

Maybe it would be helpful for those who do long journeys without charging etc to let us know the model of car they have and then I can consider them.

 

[Laughing]

What are you going on about?

Saying "one line, makes the rest nonsense", itself is complete nonsense

What have Toyota or the public gained from that £15bn, they've not sold next to any hydrogen cars, and there are zero signs they're going to sell any in our market. Can't fuel a car if there's next to no infrastructure, and in the last 10 years infrastructure has even been cut by ~50%. It says a lot that you're talking from 2015-2017, would have thought they would have had plenty of hydrogen cars for sale now huh? Their hydrogen sales are ~4k per year, and they sell ~125k EV's, and plan on that being 1.5m EV's by 2026.

You do you though, get yourself a hydrogen car from Toyota, or don't, as they don't sell one in the UK. Bang your head against a hydrogen car if you can find one

*yawn*

 

[SmallTown]

When I suggested the EV to the Mrs the 1st thing she said was it has to get me to Coventry without needing to charge.
If it was me I wouldn't worry about stopping but she also mentioned last night about being a lone female in a service station possibly in the dark and the charging points are often out of the way.
It very difficult to argue with those concerns and we dont really have a viable alternative at the moment other than her car.
We obviously also have a budget in that we wouldn't want too shell out too much on a new car as I said that may not do the job.Plus no one is made of money these days.

Maybe it would be helpful for those who do long journeys without charging etc to let us know the model of car they have and then I can consider them.

No-one does long journeys without charging. The charger location thing is a valid point. There are some right at the front of the car park, Oxford springs to mind, but most are at the rear

 

[JustTheGent]

I am right, about my circumstances, probably more right than anyone else could be, and you seem to be claiming you know more about me and EV's, without much experience of either, good luck with that If I wanted to move it on I'd sell it private, just like a Panamera owner, range rover sport owner, probably would now, or weigh it in to the dealer against a newer model. Most Range rover sports have lost 40-50% in two years.

The calcs two years ago were based on......two years ago, loads of cars were selling over list then, both ICE and EV (EV's more over list), now next to none are. Sure that means my depreciation values are more, but so are other comparable ICE cars. But, the monthly payment has not changed, company car tax rates are still next to nothing, fuel for EV's got much cheaper (currently pay about 1-2p per mile), fuel for ice much more expensive, 20mpg is like 30p per mile.

Lets go through the vid, in order:

First of all, he practically bought the most stolen, hard/ costly to insure car that is on the road (the gen before), people and insurers are going to be wary about that, and good luck with the depreciation on that, depreciation on all range rovers is horrendous.
Compared diesel a car at 6% APR (with a 5k discount) with a higher spec one at 10% APR There's a reason why they're discounting and offering a better rate on the diesel.
The petrol hybrid was expected to pay off 35k of depreciation, same as the diesel, based on LR's own numbers.
Bought that new car as a private buyer (so he's already paid 30-40% tax on that probably), he must be mental, but can understand why he wouldn't put that through his company, as the tax will be ludicrous that way too.
Private buyers are not buying cars as the rates are dogshit, but commercial/ lease/ car hire companies still buying cars and EV's are the best choice (for most, with home/ work charging) as there's massive tax savings and they still need to buy cars to maintain the fleet with newer cars, which is what their drivers want.
This also means loads of second hand decent EV's are hitting the market now, that's a good thing, it brings back price parity and increases the EV share on the road. EV's sell much quicker second hand than the ICE cars do.
Toyota are pretty much the only car company not going balls deep on EV's, maybe they're right and all the others are wrong, but I don't think so. They make good hybrids though, so will still sell loads of them. Good luck with the hydrogen cars though, that's not going to happen in the UK, that's for sure.
He's right about efficiency, but the point is moot compared to ICE, which are far less efficient. There are some cars with terrible mp/kW though, usually first gen stuff, but I get about 2.5-3, which is unreal for the performance. Plenty of cars with double that efficiency now, and still with great performance, like Tesla who have the most experience I suppose, the rest will catch up though.
Loads of the early EV cars were aimed at top of the range/ higher performance, as they were expecting businesses to be buyers first, so that's what they largely targeted, but now we're seeing all that tech filter down so basic EV's become cheaper, with less performance, more efficiency etc.

The guy has got about 20 cars, his circumstances are a lot different to most, not many personal buyers will be spending 85k to tow a caravan.

That bloke reminds me of that John Campbell, the covid commentator who switched sides to anti-vax when he realised he got more clicks from it.

Yes, of course - you know your own circumstances, but you've also got to accept that other people also know their own circumstances. They also have their own experiences.

With regards to selling your Taycan privately - good luck with that. It will be interesting to see how you get on. But people these days (including yourself) are users of vehicles rather than owners. Either way, I wouldn't generally recommend either of your models (PCP user or PCP owner) that you seem to be switching between to people who are looking for good value. That would go for all vehicles.

Anyway, if people search Porsche Taycan depreciation on YouTube, there's quite a lot of videos on it. With regards to used EVs apparently selling quickly, why are dealerships not wanting them?

Half of used car dealers reluctant to buy second-hand EVs

More than one in three said they are 'much less interested' than a year ago in taking an EV off somebody's hands, a poll of 66 different motor traders found.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

 

[Andy_W]

*yawn*

Zero detail again, makes your arguments "nonsense"

 

[Laughing]

Zero detail again, makes your arguments "nonsense"

*yawn* *yawn*. Debate honestly and we can engage otherwise I have no interest in having your one sided conversation. I thought I made that clear?

 

[Unravel_Morrison]

Yes, of course - you know your own circumstances, but you've also got to accept that other people also know their own circumstances. They also have their own experiences.

With regards to selling your Taycan privately - good luck with that. It will be interesting to see how you get on. But people these days (including yourself) are users of vehicles rather than owners. Either way, I wouldn't generally recommend either of your models (PCP user or PCP owner) that you seem to be switching between to people who are looking for good value. That would go for all vehicles.

Anyway, if people search Porsche Taycan depreciation on YouTube, there's quite a lot of videos on it. With regards to used EVs apparently selling quickly, why are dealerships not wanting them?

Half of used car dealers reluctant to buy second-hand EVs

More than one in three said they are 'much less interested' than a year ago in taking an EV off somebody's hands, a poll of 66 different motor traders found.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

That's independent dealers in terms of the survey and is not that large a number.

I would say that an independent dealer is less likely to be take a car in that they don't know than a franchise offering that manufacturer's car from new. Many independents don't even service the vehicles that they sell and with it being an uncertain market at the moment, it's no surprise that dealers will gravitate towards what they know.

I watch a podcast every Thursday where one of the hosts is a car dealer and he has historically operated in luxury SUVs and performance cars. He's changed his business model as the general market has shrunk for those types of cars. It's not just RAV's.

 

[Andy_W]

Yes, of course - you know your own circumstances, but you've also got to accept that other people also know their own circumstances. They also have their own experiences.

With regards to selling your Taycan privately - good luck with that. It will be interesting to see how you get on. But people these days (including yourself) are users of vehicles rather than owners. Either way, I wouldn't generally recommend either of your models (PCP user or PCP owner) that you seem to be switching between to people who are looking for good value. That would go for all vehicles.

Anyway, if people search Porsche Taycan depreciation on YouTube, there's quite a lot of videos on it. With regards to used EVs apparently selling quickly, why are dealerships not wanting them?

Half of used car dealers reluctant to buy second-hand EVs

More than one in three said they are 'much less interested' than a year ago in taking an EV off somebody's hands, a poll of 66 different motor traders found.

www.thisismoney.co.uk

People know their own circumstances to different degrees, it varies with experience, and probably also with level of understanding. I've had countless conversations with people thinking they need 300 mile range or whatever, as they think they need to match their fuel tank, which most don't, by most I mean probably 90%. Sure that 90% might have to plug in on a long journey, but most would stop anyway,

Equally I wouldn't suggest an EV to 90% of people who can't have home charging, as they lose out on most of the cost and time savings.

I suppose it comes down to needing to have had plenty of experience with various fuel types, but of course people who have never owned an EV or hybrid don't have that, and basing opinion selected sources makes little sense. Best thing to do is ask EV drivers (most of which have been driving ICE for 10-20 years), and we know ~90% of them will get another EV, or won't got back to ICE, which says a lot.

I've never had an issue selling a car privately or weighing one in, not sure why this would be any different, demand is high.

Most people don't buy a newer car outright, sometimes a good idea if you get a low finance rate, means you can pay off other high finance first, or if it means you can get a better return on your cash elsewhere, which is why I often do it.

I don't care if I own the car outright, lease it or PCP it or whatever, makes zero difference to me, all that matters is the TCO, what I'm getting for that TCO, and risk, could pay it off a few times over personally or through the company if I wanted, makes zero sense though.

Dealers won't want any car when the market is correcting for cars selling over list, to meeting their expected depreciation curve, as the correction could outweigh profit.

 

[Soutra]

Done a few 600 mile round trips over a year ago, for weekends aways, but these would be extreme for me, and would normally get the train for such journeys, but whether I drove the ICE, Hybrid or EV the journey time would be the same anyway.

So the range on your EV is greater than 300 miles. If it wasn't you'd be stopping and queuing at charging points like the rest of us.

We are also told that you shouldn't run the battery down below 15%, and charging it above 80% en route is neither necessary nor time efficient. So, just thinking about this, if someone has a 300 mile journey ahead, and started with the car 100% charged, you'd have to have a car with a real world range of 350 miles so as not to go below the battery's 15% warning. 350 real world miles is >400 claimed miles. And if you only charge it to 80% at a public charger because of cost, time constraints, and charging point etiquette, then you further reduce the range to 227 miles so as not to drop below 15% again. Yes, I know the battery doesn't diminish at a linear rate, but it's a reasonable guesstimate.

The EV zealots who claim that driving EV long distances is just the same as a ICE car have either never done it, have no schedule to keep or just ignore what is plainly the case - EVs are not as convenient as ICE cars on long journeys. My diesel car does c500 miles on a tank, and that isn't much different whether it's January or July.

EVs round town - great. 200 miles - great. More than that - no.

 

[SmallTown]

So the range on your EV is greater than 300 miles. If it wasn't you'd be stopping and queuing at charging points like the rest of us.

We are also told that you shouldn't run the battery down below 15%, and charging it above 80% en route is neither necessary nor time efficient. So, just thinking about this, if someone has a 300 mile journey ahead, and started with the car 100% charged, you'd have to have a car with a real world range of 350 miles so as not to go below the battery's 15% warning. 350 real world miles is >400 claimed miles. And if you only charge it to 80% at a public charger because of cost, time constraints, and charging point etiquette, then you further reduce the range to 227 miles so as not to drop below 15% again. Yes, I know the battery doesn't diminish at a linear rate, but it's a reasonable guesstimate.

The EV zealots who claim that driving EV long distances is just the same as a ICE car have either never done it, have no schedule to keep or just ignore what is plainly the case - EVs are not as convenient as ICE cars on long journeys. My diesel car does c500 miles on a tank, and that isn't much different whether it's January or July.

EVs round town - great. 200 miles - great. More than that - no.

You can run the battery’s below 15% . In fact on long journeys you should. You car will charge faster at lower levels. But you’re correct charging over 80% on a rapid will slow you down.

Honestly the long journey thing isn’t as bad as you think. It’s hugely over stated for two reasons: one being the rarity of the journey which we have covered. The second being that I’ve your travelling for 300 miles in the U.K. you’re stopping anyway. Unless you’re an irresponsible driver. So you just charged when you stop. We are taking “losing” about 20 minutes a year. You’ve spent longer than that arguing a the internet about EV! Oh and your diesel does get reduced mileage in cold weather

 

[Andy_W]

So the range on your EV is greater than 300 miles. If it wasn't you'd be stopping and queuing at charging points like the rest of us.

We are also told that you shouldn't run the battery down below 15%, and charging it above 80% en route is neither necessary nor time efficient. So, just thinking about this, if someone has a 300 mile journey ahead, and started with the car 100% charged, you'd have to have a car with a real world range of 350 miles so as not to go below the battery's 15% warning. 350 real world miles is >400 claimed miles. And if you only charge it to 80% at a public charger because of cost, time constraints, and charging point etiquette, then you further reduce the range to 227 miles so as not to drop below 15% again. Yes, I know the battery doesn't diminish at a linear rate, but it's a reasonable guesstimate.

The EV zealots who claim that driving EV long distances is just the same as a ICE car have either never done it, have no schedule to keep or just ignore what is plainly the case - EVs are not as convenient as ICE cars on long journeys. My diesel car does c500 miles on a tank, and that isn't much different whether it's January or July.

EVs round town - great. 200 miles - great. More than that - no.

The range on the current is ~250 winter and ~270 summer, but have had more and less, depending on how I'm driving/ what mode etc. I've never queued for a charger I don't think, ever. In year 1 of 3 with the lesser range car, when infrastructure was worse, I was using them much more as I was less experienced. With the newer car I'm still often pulling into services and not charging (have a lot of meetings in them), and I don't think I've ever seen any of the main ones which are full, this won't be the case everywhere though I'm sure. Even from day 1, If doing a long trip I would always plan to stop at a choice of services with a couple of options >100kW if there were limited number of chargers, but nowadays I would be targeting the places with 350kW chargers, and there's a hell of a lot more of them now, on the main routes. Obviously these charge my own car exceptionally fast, but should also get the other cars out of the way faster, even if the charge spaces were full.

You can do what you want with your EV battery if you get one, but I'm assuming no EV would stop at 15%, I don't think that's a thing. I don't worry about the 15%, as the time I would need to go into that would be extremely limited anyway, my car spends 99% of it's life between 20-80%, and 99.9% between 50% and 80%. I can still charge to 95% pretty quickly, so would do that on longer trips if I was stopping anyway (any topping up is efficient when I'm eating), but if I was ready to go I'd just leave at 70-90% or whatever and not worry about it. That's the benefit of a car with faster charging though, and using faster chargers. As far as I'm aware, most cars batteries and motor are still covered 8yr/ 100k miles even if you use that 0-15% often.

If I was driving 300 miles (done this a few times to Somerset), I would fill it up overnight on the drive, so say that gives me 250 miles in winter.
Drive 200 miles, and be at say 20%, stop at a 350kW charger
Charge to 80%, so ~60% top up or ~55kW of battery, so at 110kW average that might take 30 mins (same time to eat and for me and the dog to have a ****). Now have 200 miles range and 100 miles to go. Chances are if I'm driving 300 miles, I'm not coming back till a couple of days later, which will give me loads of opportunity to 3 pin it, or plug in at a restaurant, some shops or whatever, so pretty much the same on the way back.

Would be hoping for more like 150-200kW average in mine mind, so would probably be pretty much full in that 30 minutes, regardless of how many miles I've done, but it likely won't impact my wasted time at all.

I would never sit in my car waiting for it to charge above 80% mind, no idea why people do that if they're not eating or e-mailing etc, but see no problem in it still charging at 50-100kW if I'm not sat in it. Would annoy me if someone was sat there looking out the window taking 10kW out of a 350kW charger mind, trying to get from 90-100%, but hopefully people aren't that daft, most experienced EV drivers aren't.

I get the 500 mile point if you drive 500 miles straight without stopping (I've never done that), or drive 250 mile and come straight back but I don't do that either, and don't expect many do. It's a minor point but you would only get that 500 range by having filled up/ topped up prior though and you have another fill up at the end, or the next day. If you totted up the time it takes you to fill up twice and say have one 30 minute stop for grub, then you're probably using up more time than I am. You would do better than a 200 mile range car with a terrible charging speed, stopping at slow chargers. Nobody using a 500 mile diesel range often should be buying a 200 mile range EV with slow charging though.

 

[Andy_W]

You can run the battery’s below 15% . In fact on long journeys you should. You car will charge faster at lower levels. But you’re correct charging over 80% on a rapid will slow you down.

It will only slow you down if it's dead time though, if you're eating or having a ****, or sending some e-mails then it's just a double use of time you would be using at another time anyway. If the chargers were busy and I had dropped below 50-100kW (slow for my car, quick for some others), I would probably pull out and park to finish my business, but would assess that on a case by case basis.

Sitting in the car watching it, twiddling your thumbs, beyond 80% is silly though, but we've all done it, and I learned to not do that after a week. That is unless you're waiting to hit a specific target mind, where stopping again might be slower etc, this rarely happens from my experience though. Not many trips are beyond 80% + 80% range, that's ~400 miles for me at worst, 500 at best, and probably 600 for longer range Tesla's.

 

[SmallTown]

It will only slow you down if it's dead time though, if you're eating or having a ****, or sending some e-mails then it's just a double use of time you would be using at another time anyway. If the chargers were busy and I had dropped below 50-100kW (slow for my car, quick for some others), I would probably pull out and park to finish my business, but would assess that on a case by case basis.

Sitting in the car watching it, twiddling your thumbs, beyond 80% is silly though, but we've all done it, and I learned to not do that after a week. That is unless you're waiting to hit a specific target mind, where stopping again might be slower etc, this rarely happens from my experience though. Not many trips are beyond 80% + 80% range, that's ~400 miles for me at worst, 500 at best, and probably 600 for longer range Tesla's.

Oh yeah, totally, if you're having lunch then let it charge away! But people do need to start understanding charge curves and how to optimise a long trip.

Also something that is lacking is understanding what your car can do. At Easter I was at a services which had 300kwh and 150Kwh chargers. The 150s were free but there was an MG on the 300. I think they max out at 148 so he was basically blocking a superfast for no reason. Luckily I was "only" doing 160 miles so didn't need to charge

 

[Andy_W]

Also something that is lacking is understanding what your car can do. At Easter I was at a services which had 300kwh and 150Kwh chargers. The 150s were free but there was an MG on the 300. I think they max out at 148 so he was basically blocking a superfast for no reason. Luckily I was "only" doing 160 miles so didn't need to charge

Yeah, that would annoy me if I had to deal with it often.

I think experienced EV drivers that understand it, will be fine with this, and their lives will be easier for it too, but I can see a lot of others not giving a toss, or not understanding well enough. The latter are the same types who would pull up at a 7kW, when there's a 100kW at the other end of the car park, and get themselves into a rage wondering why it's charging so slow.

It's in peoples best interest to learn and work together but we know that's never going to happen as well as it could, as plenty won't do that, but they will be their own worst enemy as always. This is why we need a push from regulators to force manufacturers to make their cars take faster charging speeds, especially those with big batteries.

As soon as the public realise it's smaller batteries, better efficiency, with faster charging that is most optimum, rather than excessive range, things will be a lot better. Manufacturers realised that people didn't understand this though, so used massive amounts of budget on longer range/ larger batteries and penny pinched with slower charging with some, doesn't make much sense for the collective, but it will sell cars that's for sure.