England Vs France Match Thread

[Zain]

He is undoutedly a brilliant man manager.

YOU brought up the idea that I had called him a "Tactical genius". As you have highlighted, I clearly didn't claim anything of the sort.

I don't however buy into this trope that he is a poor one either, he would have been found out and we wouldn't have got to the later stages of competitions if he wasn't a strong tactician. We woud have lost some of these games to lessor sides if he was poor tactically. We know the man rounds these parts, yes he was thrust into his management role too early, but he clearly organized our defence, and was our maanger on the pitch. After 15 years retired, he has studied and learned his craft as we expected he was, because he's a consummate professional, he might not be a genius, but he knows his job and does it well.

I'm patiently waiting for you to outline an example of his tactical astuteness, so that me and you can be on the same page.

 

[Diego]

I don’t see Henderson going to the euros

Maybe not but he won’t retire

 

[WeeGord]

I'm patiently waiting for you to outline an example of his tactical astuteness, so that me and you can be on the same page.

Do you get to a QF, SF and final without having at least some tactical noise?

You seem hell bent on pushing BM to give you some sort of evidence that Southgate isn't brainless whilst at the same time 'forgot' the result of the Euros final which seems utterly bizarre.

My wife hates footy, she's never been to a game in her life and it's rarely on in the house yet she knows we lost on pens.

Please don't take this personally but you're being like a dog with a bone with BM, yet somehow don't see how as a football man, forgetting the result of England's biggest game and only major final since 1966 doesn't add up.

You're a Southgate hater for some reason, you're entitled to that but FGS, you can't personally be some huge football fan when you didn't even remember a result my wife does!

 

[WeeGord]

That should be nouse, not noise.

 

[Zain]

Do you get to a QF, SF and final without having at least some tactical noise?

You seem hell bent on pushing BM to give you some sort of evidence that Southgate isn't brainless whilst at the same time 'forgot' the result of the Euros final which seems utterly bizarre.

My wife hates footy, she's never been to a game in her life and it's rarely on in the house yet she knows we lost on pens.

Please don't take this personally but you're being like a dog with a bone with BM, yet somehow don't see how as a football man, forgetting the result of England's biggest game and only major final since 1966 doesn't add up.

You're a Southgate hater for some reason, you're entitled to that but FGS, you can't personally be some huge football fan when you didn't even remember a result my wife does!

You really are taking the notion that because I incorrectly recalled the result of the final I can't be much of a football fan, and running with it. God forbid anyone ever forget a football result ever again

Referring back to Southgate, I'm certainly not a hater. He's a top bloke and I'm sure he would do well in the right environment. Quite possibly he would have taken Boro back into the prem given the chance. But as you've mentioned, I'm pressing BM for evidence of GS' tactical nous* because I can't put a finger on any such incident that would suggest he has what it takes to take this golden generation to the pinnacle. I'm keen to know why it is some rate him so highly. Any insight would be truly appreciated.

 

[BoroMart]

Can you see any of the players retiring from England after this???

I guess Henderson, Walker and Trippier are the most at risk of international retirement....but it's not impossible they could be around for the euros.
Wilson and Coady are a combination of older and not a lot of experience, so I think they'll be replaced in March's euro qualifiers by younger players.

 

[BoroMart]

I'm patiently waiting for you to outline an example of his tactical astuteness, so that me and you can be on the same page.

He transformed us from a long ball nation that spent too much time giving the ball away and being picked apart on the negative transition. The England team play an entirely different type of football now and that was introduced by him. That philosophy has been used to develop the FA training courses that you can go and sit if you wish to find out about it. We aren't ever going to be on the same page because you aren't being honest in your debate style, you are lacking pragmatism in your views and are showing prejudices in your approaches. So lets just leave it there.

 

[BoroMart]

Do you get to a QF, SF and final without having at least some tactical noise?

exactly that, he would have done an Iceland at some point. He's beaten the teams that we expect to beat apparently. So he's shown at least a decent level of tactical knowledge.

You seem hell bent on pushing BM to give you some sort of evidence that Southgate isn't brainless whilst at the same time 'forgot' the result of the Euros final which seems utterly bizarre.

Whatever I say, he'll just come back with an extreme viewpoint about how he couldn't beat France or Croatia or Italy therefore he's rubbish. So it'll go around in circles again as I point out that Italy were unbeaten in 30 odd games, Croatia had a world class midfield to our mediocre players at that time, and France are the reigning champs and best team in the world. We nearly beat all three of course, they had better teams and Italy managed to bend and break the rules in just the right way to cling on to a draw; France played their get out of jail free card to the ref, and Croatia well Harry Kane hit the post from a yard which would have made it 2-0 and out of sight, extra time Stones header cleared off the line. Players not taking chances isn't a failure of managerial nouse, it's a failure of player technique.

 

[BoroMart]

I'm pressing BM for evidence of GS' tactical nous* because I can't put a finger on any such incident that would suggest he has what it takes to take this golden generation to the pinnacle.

Croatia, Italy and France. We created more opportunities than them in two games and enough in the other to have won it. Players missed, a worldie save occurrs or the ref doesn't do his job and you don't get the result. So he set those teams up with the opportunity to win all those games. He can't get on the field and finish the opportunity for them, and no manager can. None of those games were any major failures in tactics. You could argue we could have created more vs Italy, but the biggest moment in the game was when Chiellini assaulted Saka, because Italy were bang in trouble if he didn't.

Anyway, you've got your prejudices, it's not my job to align thoughts with you or change your prejudices. You haven't shown any evidence of southgate being a tactically poor manager, as I expected, so we might as well leave it there.

 

[Zain]

He transformed us from a long ball nation that spent too much time giving the ball away and being picked apart on the negative transition. The England team play an entirely different type of football now and that was introduced by him. That philosophy has been used to develop the FA training courses that you can go and sit if you wish to find out about it. We aren't ever going to be on the same page because you aren't being honest in your debate style, you are lacking pragmatism in your views and are showing prejudices in your approaches. So lets just leave it there.

Certainly not. I'm completely open minded and have the utmost respect for Southgate. I'm a student of the game and I'm keen to know why it is he has so many backers.

I agree that the style of play has improved massively under him. It was painful to watch England under previous managers launching it forward, or passing the ball aimlessly around the back only to lose the ball, and lose the game. But what I'm after is the knowledge that this is the man to lead us forward and bring us the glory a major footballing nation and this golden generation deserves. A man that can make tactical tweaks in the big moments to get us over the line. That is all.

 

[atypical_boro]

Certainly not. I'm completely open minded and have the utmost respect for Southgate. I'm a student of the game and I'm keen to know why it is he has so many backers.

I agree that the style of play has improved massively under him. It was painful to watch England under previous managers launching it forward, or passing the ball aimlessly around the back only to lose the ball, and lose the game. But what I'm after is the knowledge that this is the man to lead us forward and bring us the glory a major footballing nation and this golden generation deserves. A man that can make tactical tweaks in the big moments to get us over the line. That is all.

Previous managers didn’t have us anywhere near the line, let alone getting us over it.

Even if he isn’t tactically astute (and I’m not saying he’s not), he’s got a lot of whatever it is previous managers have lacked that is required for this particular job.

And of course the likes of Sven, Capello, supposedly master tacticians before they took the England job actually didn’t prove themselves to be so in international tournaments either.

 

[BoroMart]

Certainly not. I'm completely open minded and have the utmost respect for Southgate. I'm a student of the game and I'm keen to know why it is he has so many backers.

I agree that the style of play has improved massively under him. It was painful to watch England under previous managers launching it forward, or passing the ball aimlessly around the back only to lose the ball, and lose the game. But what I'm after is the knowledge that this is the man to lead us forward and bring us the glory a major footballing nation and this golden generation deserves. A man that can make tactical tweaks in the big moments to get us over the line. That is all.

But all you are going to do is go back to, yeah but he failed to beat Italy/croatia/France.

Fact is we were the better side with the better chances yesterday. Hit the post, they had to cheat and bring us down 3 or possibly 4 times to stop us scoring, their keeper made two great saves from Bellingham and Kane outside the box and another inside. He kept possibly the best forward in teh world quiet too.

Croatia, we created enough to win it, and limited their opportunities, end of the day their midfield quality created a couple of great opportunities that they took, and Kane fluffed his lines hitting the post. The manager did all he could with the tools he had. Of course he learned from this and beat Croatia soon after in the Euros. Just like he learned and improved and beat Belgium in the Nations League.

Italy for much of the game it was a tactical stale mate. We started of well, went 1 up, they adjusted and got on top and we equalised. We adjusted and it become a stalemate. Still we got Saka isolated against their defenders on a couple of occasions but he got brought down without a red card shown unfortunately. It was rightly a draw after 120 mins, but they were top class in that tournament with some excellent players and a great manager, we matched them all the way.

You've made your mind up already though, that the only way he can be tactically decent is if he beats the top teams int he biggest games, and so far those 3 games we didn't. I don't agree why that is evidence for your assertion and I've explained why.

 

[BoroMart]

And of course the likes of Sven, Capello, supposedly master tacticians before they took the England job actually didn’t prove themselves to be so in international tournaments.

exactly and look at the squads those managers had Beckham, Gerrard, Lampard, Rio, Ashley Cole, Owen, Rooney world class players in their prime.

 

[Glover_elbow]

Certainly not. I'm completely open minded and have the utmost respect for Southgate. I'm a student of the game and I'm keen to know why it is he has so many backers.

I agree that the style of play has improved massively under him. It was painful to watch England under previous managers launching it forward, or passing the ball aimlessly around the back only to lose the ball, and lose the game. But what I'm after is the knowledge that this is the man to lead us forward and bring us the glory a major footballing nation and this golden generation deserves. A man that can make tactical tweaks in the big moments to get us over the line. That is all.

He transformed us from a long ball nation that spent too much time giving the ball away and being picked apart on the negative transition. The England team play an entirely different type of football now and that was introduced by him. That philosophy has been used to develop the FA training courses that you can go and sit if you wish to find out about it. We aren't ever going to be on the same page because you aren't being honest in your debate style, you are lacking pragmatism in your views and are showing prejudices in your approaches. So lets just leave it there.

I would argue the likes of pep klopp and the general change in playing style the premier league to playing out from the back has been more influential than Southgate in changing the style of English football.
This long ball nonsense you keep spouting is utter bull as well. We weren't long ball against Iceland under Roy hodgson. Roy hodgson has never been a long ball tactician we just weren't very good. In fact the last manager who played slightly direct football was Graham Taylor. I am not arguing Southgates brand of football isnt better but to call the managers before long ball is complete rubbish.

 

[SE4 Red]

I would argue the likes of pep klopp and the general change in playing style the premier league to playing out from the back has been more influential than Southgate in changing the style of English football.
This long ball nonsense you keep spouting is utter bull as well. We weren't long ball against Iceland under Roy hodgson. Roy hodgson has never been a long ball tactician we just weren't very good. In fact the last manager who played slightly direct football was Graham Taylor. I am not arguing Southgates brand of football isnt better but to call the managers before long ball is complete rubbish.

We can call Southgate's predecessors significantly less successful though. I mentioned it earlier in this thread that Low had three "failed" major tournaments before winning the WC.

 

[BoroMart]

I would argue the likes of pep klopp and the general change in playing style the premier league to playing out from the back has been more influential than Southgate in changing the style of English football.

Southgate was massively involved in developing the england DNA programme more than a decade ago. He got involved in it working with Dan Ashworth at the FA. Klopp and Pep were still in Germany at the time ti was developed, trialed and formally released. Some of these england players were trained in academies and england youth teams purely aligned to this England philosophy.

Southgate highlighted that we needed to develop more technical footballers, be better on and around the ball, be possession based and this should start at grass roots, through academy football, England youth levels and right up to the senior team. He worked as part of the programme to deliver that, and honed it in his spell managing england youth sides. To claim that he wasn't massively influential simply isn't true.

 

[BoroMart]

This long ball nonsense you keep spouting is utter bull as well.

No it isn't. We weren't wimbledon long ball, but we did have players playing far more direct than today. We didn't play possession football much, we played too much based on running fast, getting it forward quickly and not enough on retaining possession and wearing out the opposition by moving them around

 

[Zain]

But all you are going to do is go back to, yeah but he failed to beat Italy/croatia/France.

Fact is we were the better side with the better chances yesterday. Hit the post, they had to cheat and bring us down 3 or possibly 4 times to stop us scoring, their keeper made two great saves from Bellingham and Kane outside the box and another inside. He kept possibly the best forward in teh world quiet too.

Croatia, we created enough to win it, and limited their opportunities, end of the day their midfield quality created a couple of great opportunities that they took, and Kane fluffed his lines hitting the post. The manager did all he could with the tools he had. Of course he learned from this and beat Croatia soon after in the Euros. Just like he learned and improved and beat Belgium in the Nations League.

Italy for much of the game it was a tactical stale mate. We started of well, went 1 up, they adjusted and got on top and we equalised. We adjusted and it become a stalemate. Still we got Saka isolated against their defenders on a couple of occasions but he got brought down without a red card shown unfortunately. It was rightly a draw after 120 mins, but they were top class in that tournament with some excellent players and a great manager, we matched them all the way.

You've made your mind up already though, that the only way he can be tactically decent is if he beats the top teams int he biggest games, and so far those 3 games we didn't. I don't agree why that is evidence for your assertion and I've explained why.

Nailed it. If Southgate can outmanoeuvre one of the big boys, and deliver a first knock out win since 1966, he'll be in the league of the klopps, peps, artetas of this world.

 

[BoroMart]

Nailed it. If Southgate can outmanoeuvre one of the big boys, and deliver a first knock out win since 1966, he'll be in the league of the klopps, peps, artetas of this world.

he has delivered knock out wins.

There is a spectrum from the geniuses to the dunderheads? Southgate is comfortably in the top echelons, and still learning, still relatively young but no one claimed he was in the top 1% yet.

 

[Glover_elbow]

No it isn't. We weren't wimbledon long ball, but we did have players playing far more direct than today. We didn't play possession football much, we played too much based on running fast, getting it forward quickly and not enough on retaining possession and wearing out the opposition by moving them around

I don't agree england have played slow pass it around the back for as long as I can remember. I can't remember any manger who has attempted to convert high tempo English football to international level. It's been a criticism of the national team as far back as the eighties.

No it isn't. We weren't wimbledon long ball, but we did have players playing far more direct than today. We didn't play possession football much, we played too much based on running fast, getting it forward quickly and not enough on retaining possession and wearing out the opposition by moving them around

So it wasn't long ball at all but a fast direct running style like the German world cup winning side of 2014. Quite possibly it didn't work because the standard of English footballers at the time was shìte.