England Vs France Match Thread

Zain said:
You really are taking the notion that because I incorrectly recalled the result of the final I can't be much of a football fan, and running with it. God forbid anyone ever forget a football result ever again 🤣

Referring back to Southgate, I'm certainly not a hater. He's a top bloke and I'm sure he would do well in the right environment. Quite possibly he would have taken Boro back into the prem given the chance. But as you've mentioned, I'm pressing BM for evidence of GS' tactical nous* because I can't put a finger on any such incident that would suggest he has what it takes to take this golden generation to the pinnacle. I'm keen to know why it is some rate him so highly. Any insight would be truly appreciated.
Click to expand...

It's hardly a random league cup game from 30 years ago! forgetting the result of the 2nd biggest game in international football, that England were involved in a mere 18 months ago, is hardly becoming of a 'student of the game' is it?

All you keep banging on about is anti-Southgate rubbish, prove this, prove that.

You seem very occupied with the national team and its manager yet completely forgot the result of the biggest game we've had in over 50 years.

Can't say I'd particularly noticed your username before but you're either on a wind up, or you're an idiot. Either way, I'm out.
 
BoroMart said:
he has delivered knock out wins.

There is a spectrum from the geniuses to the dunderheads? Southgate is comfortably in the top echelons, and still learning, still relatively young but no one claimed he was in the top 1% yet.
Click to expand...
Against the big boys? We haven't beaten a "major nation" in a knock out game since 1966. If he can do this, which I believe the quality of this squad merits, he'll be rightly considered a top manager. Until then he'll be remembered as the manager of a squad that underachieved, sadly.
 
Zain said:
Against the big boys? We haven't beaten a "major nation" in a knock out game since 1966. If he can do this, which I believe the quality of this squad merits, he'll be rightly considered a top manager. Until then he'll be remembered as the manager of a squad that underachieved, sadly.
Click to expand...
From 1968-2016 England won 6 (SIX) knockout games in major tournaments. Southgate has won 6 knockout games from 2018-2022.
 
Zain said:
Against the big boys? We haven't beaten a "major nation" in a knock out game since 1966. If he can do this, which I believe the quality of this squad merits, he'll be rightly considered a top manager. Until then he'll be remembered as the manager of a squad that underachieved, sadly.
Click to expand...

Do we have the best squad in the world? If not, how is not winning a major tournament an underachievement?

Can't believe I'm still playing along with this nonsense mind.
 
WeeGord said:
It's hardly a random league cup game from 30 years ago! forgetting the result of the 2nd biggest game in international football, that England were involved in a mere 18 months ago, is hardly becoming of a 'student of the game' is it?

All you keep banging on about is anti-Southgate rubbish, prove this, prove that.

You seem very occupied with the national team and its manager yet completely forgot the result of the biggest game we've had in over 50 years.

Can't say I'd particularly noticed your username before but you're either on a wind up, or you're an idiot. Either way, I'm out.
Click to expand...
There are a million and one reasons a human can forget a crucial piece of information or not be able to recollect an event. I work in healthcare as a pharmacist and it's common that patients can't recall taking medication that they took minutes ago. Anyhow, I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make, but I do think it's high time you give it a rest.

I'm sorry that you've not noticed my username before? it's a real shame that you have had to resort to personal insults due to your lack of ability to reason. Please don't respond to or quote any of my messages going forward. Thank you.
 
BoroMart said:
Southgate was massively involved in developing the england DNA programme more than a decade ago. He got involved in it working with Dan Ashworth at the FA. Klopp and Pep were still in Germany at the time ti was developed, trialed and formally released. Some of these england players were trained in academies and england youth teams purely aligned to this England philosophy.

Southgate highlighted that we needed to develop more technical footballers, be better on and around the ball, be possession based and this should start at grass roots, through academy football, England youth levels and right up to the senior team. He worked as part of the programme to deliver that, and honed it in his spell managing england youth sides. To claim that he wasn't massively influential simply isn't true.
Click to expand...
He was influential but so was the change in philosophy from premier league managers. Who's had the most effect on the playing style of stones and walker I would argue its pep not Southgate
 
Zain said:
There are a million and one reasons a human can forget a crucial piece of information or not be able to recollect an event. I work in healthcare as a pharmacist and it's common that patients can't recall taking medication that they took minutes ago. Anyhow, I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make, but I do think it's high time you give it a rest.

I'm sorry that you've not noticed my username before? it's a real shame that you have had to resort to personal insults due to your lack of ability to reason. Please don't respond to or quote any of my messages going forward. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Somewhat ironic talking of personal insults then declaring me unable to reason.

The only person displaying that on this thread is you. You've been presented with plenty of reasoned points of view and yet you are sticking with your ridiculous anti-Southgate rubbish while refusing to acknowledge anything put to you.

As for forgetting things thats very true, of course it is. I'm not blessed with the greatest of memories myself but one thing I can be sure of is that someone pretending to be such a student of the game, an England fan, wouldn't forget the result last year it just doesn't wash.

'Character', or on a wind up who knows.
 
SE4 Red said:
Do you not count Germany as a major nation?
Click to expand...
Of course, that was a very good win and my apologies for not being specific. In WCs we haven't beaten a major nation in knockouts since 1966. That is worrying, however I'm sure is something that can and will be rectified.
 
Glover_elbow said:
I don't agree england have played slow pass it around the back for as long as I can remember. I can't remember any manger who has attempted to convert high tempo English football to international level. It's been a criticism of the national team as far back as the eighties.

So it wasn't long ball at all but a fast direct running style like the German world cup winning side of 2014. Quite possibly it didn't work because the standard of English footballers at the time was shìte.
Click to expand...
It was nothing like the german style. It was pass it around like a hot potato then lump it down the line for a winger to chase or up top for a forward to hold it and try and pick up the pieces. It was a poor style. It was a failed style. It often involved long passes, Gerrard was famed for trying his hollywood ball passes, Tony Adams and John Terry for banging it forward at the first sign of a press.
 
Zain said:
Against the big boys? We haven't beaten a "major nation" in a knock out game since 1966. If he can do this, which I believe the quality of this squad merits, he'll be rightly considered a top manager. Until then he'll be remembered as the manager of a squad that underachieved, sadly.
Click to expand...
so many specifics to 'prove your point'. We have beaten major nations like argentina in group games, we have beaten major nations like Netherlands in Euro knock out stages, we have beaten excellent teams that aren't traditionally classed as a 'major nation' like Denmark. This seems like creating a set of criteria to suit an argument, rather than a proper analysis of anything.
 
BoroMart said:
so many specifics to 'prove your point'. We have beaten major nations like argentina in group games, we have beaten major nations like Netherlands in Euro knock out stages, we have beaten excellent teams that aren't traditionally classed as a 'major nation' like Denmark. This seems like creating a set of criteria to suit an argument, rather than a proper analysis of anything.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your point but I wouldn't consider it a specific or me manufacturing an argument at all. The fact is that we tend to fall at the same hurdle every time we get to a knockout game in a wc. Whether that's down to a lack of quality or poor management that has to be addressed before the fans expectations can be met. Once we get a feel for beating the likes of Argentina and Netherlands in the last 16, quarters, semis, finals I'm sure we'll be considered a tournament team.
 
Zain said:
I appreciate your point but I wouldn't consider it a specific or me manufacturing an argument at all. The fact is that we tend to fall at the same hurdle every time we get to a knockout game in a wc. Whether that's down to a lack of quality or poor management that has to be addressed before the fans expectations can be met. Once we get a feel for beating the likes of Argentina and Netherlands in the last 16, quarters, semis, finals I'm sure we'll be considered a tournament team.
Click to expand...
I think it’s a matter of us coming up against a better side with some bad luck thrown in. In 1990 we should have possibly won the WC that year and the inside of the post denied us a place in the final. on Saturday we didn’t have the rub of the green or the favour of the Brazilian referee. I thought we matched France punch for punch and on another day we could have won that game. Croatia were the better team in 2018 and in 2014 we were a poor side with an ageing “golden generation” of players.

As for consistency you could argue we are better than Italy (didn’t qualify), Germany who for the second tournament in a row failed to make the knockout stages. Two teams you would argue are “tournament teams”
 
We’re really good at setting up to control possession, shift it to either side, and probe for an opening. We generally keep things tight and look for a goal from a set piece.
It’s an effective tactic against most opposition.

There’s still question marks for me about his ability to change tac against good opposition mid match.
 
Well it's been a couple of days since England lost and we have had time for reflection. With that in mind, some folks are still talking *****! That's my considered, reflective opinion.
 
BoroMart said:
Southgate was massively involved in developing the england DNA programme more than a decade ago. He got involved in it working with Dan Ashworth at the FA. Klopp and Pep were still in Germany at the time ti was developed, trialed and formally released. Some of these england players were trained in academies and england youth teams purely aligned to this England philosophy.

Southgate highlighted that we needed to develop more technical footballers, be better on and around the ball, be possession based and this should start at grass roots, through academy football, England youth levels and right up to the senior team. He worked as part of the programme to deliver that, and honed it in his spell managing england youth sides. To claim that he wasn't massively influential simply isn't true.
Click to expand...
The programme was developed before Gareth Southgate was at the FA with the U21's. The programme itself was in place in 2014.
 
Last edited:
Zain said:
The fact is that we tend to fall at the same hurdle every time we get to a knockout game in a wc.
Click to expand...
We don't, previous managers fell at group stages not so long ago. We've now lost to Croatia in a game that could have gone either way and France in a game we were the better side. So again an improvement, a narrowing of the gap from the true elites to ourselves. If there is an allusion of mindset or technical failure we can put that to bed because one of the best teams in modern years, Croatia, we did beat them in the euros. So we can beat these teams, we just haven't lined up beating them at the right time to win a WC or Euro. But the capability is clearly there and will happen.

Zain said:
Whether that's down to a lack of quality or poor management that has to be addressed before the fans expectations can be met.
Click to expand...
It's down to small moments in games that didn't go our way

Bernieslavenschin said:
We’re really good at setting up to control possession, shift it to either side, and probe for an opening. We generally keep things tight and look for a goal from a set piece.
It’s an effective tactic against most opposition.

There’s still question marks for me about his ability to change tac against good opposition mid match.
Click to expand...
there are examples against france how we tweaked tactics, Luke Shaw was bombing on and Griezemann was drifting into the gap to support Dembele. This was recognised and we stopped pushing him on after 20 mins. This effectively negated Frances attack for the majority of the game.

Pembroke said:
The programme was developed before Gareth Southgate was at the FA with the U21's. The programme itself was in place in 2014.
Click to expand...
Incorrect, and it's really easy to identify the facts, or really lazy to past incorrect nonsense......google is your friend. He joined the FA as Head of Elite Development in 2011. Within about 12 months he was a key stakeholder in the England DNA programme which took a couple of years to develop and formally release.

www.theguardian.com

FA appoints Gareth Southgate as new head of elite development

Gareth Southgate has been appointed by the FA to work with Sir Trevor Brooking on bringing through talent
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

So back to the idea that somehow Pep and Klopp who were still managing in Germany were more influential on the England football team than the key men who developed and formalised our philosophy is simply a myth peddled by those who are reluctant to give praise where it's due. It's dishonest and born of prejudices.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top