Fry, Hackney, Coburn and Bangura nearing return from injury

[Caesium137]

ifs, buts, maybe. When we pick the bones over the season we just haven't been consistent enough, with or without injuries.

Key learning points for me are:

- don't throw 8 players in across the first 7 league games like we did this season. We need a slow and steady introduction of new players and some consistency of team selection.

- Getting players in after the season has started means the new signings don't get a pre-season to learn the system we play. That's really important to a team that wants to play passing intricate football as there is less margin for error, and more need to be in synch with each other.

- Our fullback positions have been a nightmare this season, so many players, so little consistency. Need to work on getting proper resolutions for these roles

- If we are playing possession football we need to have a proper CDM in the squad to stop the counter

- You can't go into the season with just 2 dedicated CFs

- You can't go into the season with 12 players having less than 100 league games at this level or equivalent.


Plan:
Get key positions in early. CDM, CF

Other signings may need to get up to speed before we let them play

Any defensive signings must be comfortable on the ball

Make sure we have some experience in the first team

Get any sales out the way quickly, if we are to lose a key player, then it needs to be done early so we know what budget we are working with, otherwise we end up with spendable money sat in the bank again. Discuss with Hackney, and Rav if they want to stay. If yes, then great, if they are open to offers,s et them a deadline of when to get it resolved, otherwise they stay.

Posted this t'other week....

I think if we want to have a 'real go' utilising the 'war chest', then we need first team starters in these positions.

First XI
-----------------------Dieng-----------------------

Signing------Lenihan---------VDB------Signing

-----------Hackney-----------Signing------------

---Jones-------------Signing-----------McGree--

------------------------Signing---------------------

Second XI / rotation options

-----------------------Glover-----------------------

Smith---------Signing---------Clarke------Engel

-----------------Signing-----Barlaser------------

----Forss-------------Azaz------Bangura/Silvera--

--------------------Coburn/Lath--------------------

To leave:
Greenwood (although for £1.5 million I might be tempted)
O'Brien (not seen enough to say he's worth a decent fee and chunk of our wage budget)
Ayling (looked okay at RWB, mainly poor at RB)
Thomas (expected way more, looks lost)
Dijksteel (never fancied, often injured)
Fry (never does enough for me, got all the attributes, doesn't seem to have the ruthlessness or desire, misses a month or more most seasons it seems, a new challenge as a more orthodox champo CB might see him flourish)
McNair (probably too much wage, never 100% cemented a place, if we stick with three CB worth keeping IMO)
Howson (Contentious for some I'm sureI But too old to be counted on, he's not getting any better, poor captain, not athletic or physically imposing enough in a lot of games, maybe keep him if on buttons as a rotation option)
Gilbert (waste of money / squad place)
Hoppe (waste of money / squad place)
Bilongo (can't see him making it at our level)

I should emphasise that this is with a 'going for it' season in mind, if we want a strong push for upper play-offs, outside chance of autos type scenario.

If we want similar to this season, like an about 8th and maybe sneak the play offs scenario with a bit of luck on form and injuries, probably a much less drastic overhaul would be needed.

I also feel there's a bit of a malaise mentally around the squad when we're not steam rolling teams.

We seem to lack fight, belief, aggression, niggle and a bit of shîthousêry. We lack leaders and a vocal organiser. It is primarily for that reason I would try and move on from Howson, Fry (and McNair too), they've been here a long time and been pretty much ever presents in squads that have failed to deliver.

A fresh start with a few more experienced, champo toughened campaigners at fullback and defensive centre mid would transform us I feel (as long as they're of sufficient quality and athleticism to implement Carrick's favoured formation and style of play obviously).

The finishing touch would be an affordable version of Archer and Akpom (or who knows, the real deal!) to not only carry much more goal threat, but crucially hold up the ball and occupy defenders, creating time and space to allow us to play how we want to at the back.

Dig deep Gibbo!

#blowthewarchest

 

[BoroMart]

Ayling (looked okay at RWB, mainly poor at RB)

we need to be a bit autious of the narrative that he can't play RB, he's played that a lot in his career. He had barely kicked a ball in months when he arrived and we were playing poorly and he was thrown into the side despite barely knowing his team mates names. He's got better every game since. He might well play better RB now that he's getting match fit and settled.

 

[Caesium137]

we need to be a bit autious of the narrative that he can't play RB, he's played that a lot in his career. He had barely kicked a ball in months when he arrived and we were playing poorly and he was thrown into the side despite barely knowing his team mates names. He's got better every game since. He might well play better RB now that he's getting match fit and settled.

I wouldn't mind him as a cheap experienced back up, but Smith has that role already and has a year left (if he gets back to fitness). I'd much rather have a mid twenties Champo experienced guy we can rely on for three or four years minimum. A Smith/Ayling in Dijksteels body, minus the injury problems is what we need.

We lack physicality, power, strength, (pace to a lesser extent with Jones, Bangura & Lath available) and athleticism throughout the team. It makes sense to address that in the positions we are short of a good quality first team starter in to me (LB, RB, DCM, ST).

I think there's barely a player in our squad that the opposition players would worry about playing against. We are pretty small, weak, quiet and fold under pressure quite often. Our record against the bottom six suggests we're not up to it mentally and physically against the more organised in you face style sides. I'd just like a few competitive athletes with a will to win who'll put everything into getting onto a header or a tackle to secure a win or a clean sheet. More of your Ayala and Leadbitter attitude rather than Fry, Howson and McNair.

 

[Johngannonsunderpants]

Watching him with my eyes. His long passes may sometimes find our players but then we can lose the ball from the knockdowns anyway and I feel he chooses to pass like that because he isn’t comfortable passing into midfield.

I haven’t checked the stats this is just from the watching him myself and he makes me feel the most uneasy both defensively and when he’s on the ball. I prefer Clarke, Lenihan and VDB to him. Also prefer McNair to him if we’re playing 3 at the back.

It’s just an opinion, doesn’t mean I am wrong.

So people criticise for us passing out from the back too much. Criticise Fry for being ponderous in possession (when trying to draw the opposition out - it's part of the managers tactics) and now it's for him hoofing it forward. Which is it?

I would suggest that if all fry did was hoof it forward he would be a fan favorite because that's what all of the no nothings want. I would also suggest that he wouldn't get a game under Michael Carrick if he played that way, but he does so that narrative is bull.

While I like Clarke (he's ungainly but brave on the ball) he gives the ball away when he passes out more than anyone.

I would also suggest that Lenihan is the most comfortable player on the ball in Carrick's system as he was a midfielder and is a more accomplished passer of the ball than Mcnair, who is probably the best at carrying the ball our from the back.

All have their merits and at some point (maybe already) Rav will be the standout as he has every attribute (even the leadership at 19).

 

[indeedido]

Our squad is large and simply nowhere near good enough to go for top 6 with any degree of optimism.
Lots of work for chubby Kieran.

 

[Glover_elbow]

ifs, buts, maybe. When we pick the bones over the season we just haven't been consistent enough, with or without injuries.

Key learning points for me are:

- don't throw 8 players in across the first 7 league games like we did this season. We need a slow and steady introduction of new players and some consistency of team selection.

- Getting players in after the season has started means the new signings don't get a pre-season to learn the system we play. That's really important to a team that wants to play passing intricate football as there is less margin for error, and more need to be in synch with each other.

- Our fullback positions have been a nightmare this season, so many players, so little consistency. Need to work on getting proper resolutions for these roles

- If we are playing possession football we need to have a proper CDM in the squad to stop the counter

- You can't go into the season with just 2 dedicated CFs

- You can't go into the season with 12 players having less than 100 league games at this level or equivalent.

.

In otherwords recruitment was an absolute balls up last season rvb and dieng apart Personally i think we need more experienced uk based recruitment this season. Theres great value in overseas signings but the acclimatising time to the championship is something we dont really have

 

[BoroMart]

In otherwords recruitment was an absolute balls up last season rvb and dieng apart Personally i think we need more experienced uk based recruitment this season. Theres great value in overseas signings but the acclimatising time to the championship is something we dont really have

Not really. It’s a series of windows required to resolved a longer term failed policy

Dieng, rav, lath, rogers we’re undoubted successes
Engel, Bangura, Azaz jury is out
Gilbert, glover not been great

Loans have been less successful but they’re short term so less harmful

 

[Quicksilvera]

Our squad is large and simply nowhere near good enough to go for top 6 with any degree of optimism.
Lots of work for chubby Kieran.

What does his weight have to do with anything? (He’s actually quite slim btw) He’s done a good job hence why there’s a lot of interest shown in him. I’m excited for next season, the personal comment is just unnecessary and says a lot about you.

 

[Mysonpat.]

In otherwords recruitment was an absolute balls up last season rvb and dieng apart Personally i think we need more experienced uk based recruitment this season. Theres great value in overseas signings but the acclimatising time to the championship is something we dont really have

I just keep thinking there must be better players in the lower divisions then what he have brought in ? apart from (Dieng and VDB) they will take less time to settle and have the physical attributes to withstand seasons in the championship?
I’ve got nothing against lower league foreign players, but it must be bloody hard for them to get to grips with everything. Hit the ground running.

 

[indeedido]

What does his weight have to do with anything? (He’s actually quite slim btw) He’s done a good job hence why there’s a lot of interest shown in him. I’m excited for next season, the personal comment is just unnecessary and says a lot about you.

What "interest" has been shown in him?
Anything the club does excites you, I'd imagine you came out on saturday thrilled.
If the chubby comment upset you then you are a dear.

 

[Quicksilvera]

What "interest" has been shown in him?
Anything the club does excites you, I'd imagine you came out on saturday thrilled.
If the chubby comment upset you then you are a dear.

I just don’t think you need to make personal insults about the man.

Plenty of interest, a few clubs have looked at taking him.

 

[Alan_Breck]

There's a very good Championship team in there somewhere, and a good bench IF everyone is fit at the same time. That's a difficult ask as every club suffers injuries, suspensions and loss of form.

It will be sad day when Jonny Howson doesn't make the team. He'll be much missed in a similar manner to Grant Leadbitter.

#UTB

 

[AytonMews]

Jeeeez… people lose a few clem themselves and then start fat shaming others!!

 

[Laughing]

One thing that does confuse me a little is this.

The mooners who think we have to replace 4,5 or 6 players for next season, how do you explain being very close to the playoffs this season? Add in we played a decent proportion of the season without a cf and had our club captain missing for several games and perhaps our best midfielder still out injured. Surely you would accept that we would bridge that gap without spending anything, just keeping the squad together?

I accept that one or two players may leave which might change the number of players we need, but a complete squad overhaul, seriously?

 

[Caesium137]

One thing that does confuse me a little is this.

The mooners who think we have to replace 4,5 or 6 players for next season, how do you explain being very close to the playoffs this season?

For me personally, I was more listing a 'go for it' scenario to have a tilt at the autos.

We're about 30 points off that currently, maybe 40 by the time the season ends (we're only 15 points above the relegation places as I type). Also, it's not like we've only lost games and looked poor where we've had three, four or five injured either.

Some of our players aren't looking good enough for a push for the autos, technically, physically and mentally it has seemed at times.

We've got players in our squad (on loan) that teams at the level we're aspiring to be have deemed to be not good enough.

We have players in our squad that our manager has deemed to be not good enough during times when we've had six or seven first teamers unavailable.

We've brought players back early who have been injured again a couple of times, as their squad cover hasn't been good enough it seems.

We have two players out of contract, who haven't really achieved our aims whilst here, one a high earner, the other will be 36 a fortnight after the season ends.

I think if we sign forward players of the quality and performance of Akpom and Archer when they we're on fire last season, we can get away with lower quality in DCM and fullback.

But I can't see many of the top three teams regularly starting Engel/Bangura, Smith/Ayling/Dijksteel, Howson/Barlaser, Greenwood/Silvera etc. Gilbert & Hoppe haven't broken into our team when we've been desperate for a striker/goal threat for months at a time.

And finally, I think we're still a midfielder, striker and a ten short anyway.

So we need the striker we didn't sign, a replacement for Howson, a ten to replace Crooks, replacements for the loans who have played a fair bit, and an upgrade at both fullback positions IMO, happy with Smith and Engel as rotation options though.

Then you have a decision on replacing McNair in the squad (I think he'll want too much, if we're sticking to a four the Rav, Darragh, Fry and Clarke are probably enough, (although personally I'd replace Fry, although he's pretty good most of the time). If we're sticking with a three, we'd maybe need an extra CB, but that also changes the wingback/fullback replacements, Jones and Bangura may well be ideal and just need cover.

Plus / finally, replacing any of the other players who might be sought after and subsequently sold (currently Hackney, Rav and McGree you'd assume).

Be an interesting summer, hopefully start the season with the squad in place for change.

UTB

 

[Laughing]

For me personally, I was more listing a 'go for it' scenario to have a tilt at the autos.

We're about 30 points off that currently, maybe 40 by the time the season ends (we're only 15 points above the relegation places as I type). Also, it's not like we've only lost games and looked poor where we've had three, four or five injured either.

Some of our players aren't looking good enough for a push for the autos, technically, physically and mentally it has seemed at times.

We've got players in our squad (on loan) that teams at the level we're aspiring to be have deemed to be not good enough.

We have players in our squad that our manager has deemed to be not good enough during times when we've had six or seven first teamers unavailable.

We've brought players back early who have been injured again a couple of times, as their squad cover hasn't been good enough it seems.

We have two players out of contract, who haven't really achieved our aims whilst here, one a high earner, the other will be 36 a fortnight after the season ends.

I think if we sign forward players of the quality and performance of Akpom and Archer when they we're on fire last season, we can get away with lower quality in DCM and fullback.

But I can't see many of the top three teams regularly starting Engel/Bangura, Smith/Ayling/Dijksteel, Howson/Barlaser, Greenwood/Silvera etc. Gilbert & Hoppe haven't broken into our team when we've been desperate for a striker/goal threat for months at a time.

And finally, I think we're still a midfielder, striker and a ten short anyway.

So we need the striker we didn't sign, a replacement for Howson, a ten to replace Crooks, replacements for the loans who have played a fair bit, and an upgrade at both fullback positions IMO, happy with Smith and Engel as rotation options though.

Then you have a decision on replacing McNair in the squad (I think he'll want too much, if we're sticking to a four the Rav, Darragh, Fry and Clarke are probably enough, (although personally I'd replace Fry, although he's pretty good most of the time). If we're sticking with a three, we'd maybe need an extra CB, but that also changes the wingback/fullback replacements, Jones and Bangura may well be ideal and just need cover.

Plus / finally, replacing any of the other players who might be sought after and subsequently sold (currently Hackney, Rav and McGree you'd assume).

Be an interesting summer, hopefully start the season with the squad in place for change.

UTB

The autos were never achievable this season with the squad we have, I agree. It may well be easier next season though.

We do have to replace crooks and we do need another option up top.

Not sure we need to replace Rogers yet. I think we haven't found a way to get the best out of azaz, and Oddly enough it may need Mcgree to leave for that to happen which would leave us another attacking mid short.

I actually think we are ok at left back. Yet to be convinced by styling but it's early days yet and he has missed a lot of football not sure I am keen on buying him though.

On the lb/rb situation. It's no coincidence that whoever we try they struggle and the way we play they always will unless we go 5 at the back. And I think that's the case whoever we buy.

Howson needs replacing and again, whilst I am unconvinced by barlaser I think we use him in the wrong way. He isn't a holding midfielder, the problem is I am not sure he is an attacking mid either.

Given the overall age of our squad and the injuries we have had, it shouldn't surprise anyone if we keep the same squad, roughly, and fair much much better next season.

 

[Caesium137]

The autos were never achievable this season with the squad we have, I agree. It may well be easier next season though.

We do have to replace crooks and we do need another option up top.

Not sure we need to replace Rogers yet. I think we haven't found a way to get the best out of azaz, and Oddly enough it may need Mcgree to leave for that to happen which would leave us another attacking mid short.

I actually think we are ok at left back. Yet to be convinced by styling but it's early days yet and he has missed a lot of football not sure I am keen on buying him though.

On the lb/rb situation. It's no coincidence that whoever we try they struggle and the way we play they always will unless we go 5 at the back. And I think that's the case whoever we buy.

Howson needs replacing and again, whilst I am unconvinced by barlaser I think we use him in the wrong way. He isn't a holding midfielder, the problem is I am not sure he is an attacking mid either.

Given the overall age of our squad and the injuries we have had, it shouldn't surprise anyone if we keep the same squad, roughly, and fair much much better next season.

Yeah agree with most of that, I suppose it depends on where Gibbo's head / heart is on having another go like under AK, Monk and Pulis to a lesser extent.

The fullbacks last season did 'okay' certainly better than this year, like you say, with more help from their forward counterpart they could look better. Engel and Bangura could cover each other well possibly using Bangura instead of McGree on the left. But on their own I think both have too many defensive weaknesses, without the Giles level contributions further forward.

Hopefully Azaz settles in to number ten, but a hugely important part of what Akpom and Archer did was retain possession and / or occupy defenders, to allow us to get up the pitch. Azaz and Lath aren't as good at that, but Lath definitely has other strengths. I don't think it is any coincidence that we often looked much better this season with either Coburn holding the ball up more, or Rogers driving forward from ten committing players and setting up attacks. None of our other current options really have that ability.

 

[B_G]

The mooners who think we have to replace 4,5 or 6 players for next season, how do you explain being very close to the playoffs this season?

Are we very close to playoffs this season? It felt like our realistic chances of play offs were gone by mid Feb. We don't really know exactly how far short we will land until the end of the season. It could be a couple of points or it could be 10+ points which is a huge shortfall depending on how we perform from here on in.

But even then we are talking about scraping into 6th. We are well behind the top 4 and even if we scraped in, it would feel like we would be big underdogs to actually go on and get through.

If we are really targeting promotion then you would hope we would be up pressing the top 2 teams or getting in those spots with the play off spots being a back up. Like we were last season.

And we are a long way short of that!

If I was in West Broms shoes, I would maybe be thinking we are a couple of players short if they do fail to go up. I think we are realistically 5 or 6 players short.

 

[Laughing]

Are we very close to playoffs this season? It felt like our realistic chances of play offs were gone by mid Feb. We don't really know exactly how far short we will land until the end of the season. It could be a couple of points or it could be 10+ points which is a huge shortfall depending on how we perform from here on in.

But even then we are talking about scraping into 6th. We are well behind the top 4 and even if we scraped in, it would feel like we would be big underdogs to actually go on and get through.

If we are really targeting promotion then you would hope we would be up pressing the top 2 teams or getting in those spots with the play off spots being a back up. Like we were last season.

And we are a long way short of that!

If I was in West Broms shoes, I would maybe be thinking we are a couple of players short if they do fail to go up. I think we are realistically 5 or 6 players short.

See I think you are being really negative here and we never got into the autos last season did we? Barring that in mind and that we lost, I dunno 35 million worth of talent? We were never going to replace like for like, we didn't have that kind of money. And we failed at the penultimate hurdle.

We may finish 10 points off playoffs or 5 or 2 or in the playoffs. However we can only assess on where we are now. So I guess the question you haven't answered is would we be in the playoffs without the injuries this season right now?

If you think not then you will believe we need a pretty major recruitment in the summer. If you think we would be then it's tweaking that is required, assuming, of course that we have minimal outgoings.

 

[BoroMart]

See I think you are being really negative here and we never got into the autos last season did we? Barring that in mind and that we lost, I dunno 35 million worth of talent? We were never going to replace like for like, we didn't have that kind of money. And we failed at the penultimate hurdle.

We may finish 10 points off playoffs or 5 or 2 or in the playoffs. However we can only assess on where we are now. So I guess the question you haven't answered is would we be in the playoffs without the injuries this season right now?

If you think not then you will believe we need a pretty major recruitment in the summer. If you think we would be then it's tweaking that is required, assuming, of course that we have minimal outgoings.

Last seasons performance was amplified by a once in a decade stroke of luck with loanees