Ingleby_Flash
Well-known member
There isn’t have a look and checkOh yes there is.
Were the ones who liked your post gullible in believing you?
There isn’t have a look and checkOh yes there is.
Were the ones who liked your post gullible in believing you?
I'm not defending Johnson. I'm saying people that think the bus is the reason anyone voted brexit are being gullible.Boris Johnson was proven to be a liar many times before the general election.
He was proven to have lied to parliament.
People still believed him. I think you're vastly overestimating the intelligence of your average daily mail reading tory voter.
Even then it was only the figure on the bus that was proven to be incorrect.
The more important implied lie (that was the whole point of what was on the bus) was we were sending money to bloody foreigners for no reason that we could (and would) otherwise be spending on ourselves.
Many brexit voters won't only have believed that, I suspect they'll have been frothing at the mouth and bursting blood vessels about it.
No. as I said, I am not a Tory. Never was, never will be. I'm not going to pretend that there is only one way to run a country though and I accept that other people have different ways of measuring that than I do.Can you honestly stand there and say this 14 year Tory austerity has reduced the national debt which is what they claimed they were going to do?
People spouted it because we did pay a fee to be members of the EU and if we didn't pay a fee we could spend that money on something else. That bit wasn't a lie. The lie on the bus was that £350m was a gross figure and not a net figure.In which case, why did people repeatedly spout it at the time, clearly some people did think, don't pay 350m a week into the EU = £350m more into the NHS.
If that isn't the case, then clearly the brexit campaign and it's media backers were approaching the biggest economic decision the people in this country has ever faced with utter dishonesty.....which is true.
Nobody is saying otherwise. We are looking at costs and benefits and effects of the last 14 years and how people gullibly bought into something that is proven to have not materialised. You started to discuss economic conservatism as being something only the tories can deliver......but that isn't what they delivered at all, provably so. It's gullible to presume the last 14 years was about economic conservatism, the tory party is not conservative anymore, not economically it's closer to theft via libertarianism .No. as I said, I am not a Tory. Never was, never will be. I'm not going to pretend that there is only one way to run a country though and I accept that other people have different ways of measuring that than I do.
Yes it was, because that payment was buying something with net gains. It didn't create a surplus of £350m which is what the message intended to show, it created a net loss to our economy and the exchequer. so it was a lie.People spouted it because we did pay a fee to be members of the EU and if we didn't pay a fee we could spend that money on something else. That bit wasn't a lie.
That's a weak argument, the impact on the economy was modelled as best-medium-worst case. The right wing media just scoffed at it and then said it was a lie if it didn't meet teh worst case predictions.There was dishonesty everywhere.
even a broken clock is right twice a day. I'll play the subject matter, not the people on any individual subject. Yes Cameron is an ass, but he wasn't wrong saying remain was a good strategic direction.However, on the opposite side of the debate we had Cameron and Osborne championing remain who if I am not mistaken are the people to blame for the austerity you mentioned on the previous post and who I wouldn't trust if they told me that the grass was green.
Selling something as negative is easier, selling change is easier. It always has been. It was pure demonisation and fanaticism. It's easy to fantasise about the benefits of something not been done before, the remain campaign was keep the status quo, we know the benefit it brings, but that isn't sexy.The remain lot had plenty of media and business backers as well.
I didn't say you were defending Johnson. In fact not sure how you've reached that conclusion.I'm not defending Johnson. I'm saying people that think the bus is the reason anyone voted brexit are being gullible.
There is you know. See post 40 at the bottom of page 2.There isn’t have a look and check
Assuming that all 48% of remainers were as adamant that remain was the right choice as yourself is wrong. As was assuming all 52% of brexiteers were gullible racists.
£350m vs £250m makes very little difference to most people's perception - they both fall into the category of 'a large number'. Leave could have achieved the same impact without exaggeration. here's a reasonable subreddit on why:I don't think anyone has suggested all Brexiteers were gullible racists.
Some were racist, but not gullible
Others were gullible but not racist.
Others were neither. Some businesses did ok out of Brexit; their owners may just have voted on self interest.
As for the bus, the leave campaign must have believed it would make a difference or they wouldn't have handed the world a stick to beat them with.
I don't think it was putting it on a bus which made a difference; it was circulating that message in a variety of media during their campaign.
Barely over halfway towards a decent salary then (apparently).FH
"Others were neither. Some businesses did ok out of Brexit; their owners may just have voted on self interest."
Some individuals have also benefitted not just businesses - I saw an advert for UK lorry drivers on Wednesday by Culina - the pay was £51,000 a year. Those that have benefitted may keep a low profile.
This is very true, and I alluded to this earlier. We are all gullible or trillions wouldn't be spent on advertising.its everyone else. they're all gullible, but not me. no way.
Not the way it was executed no.Without wanting to invoke ire or discontent (or start another thread), can we see any positives as a result of Brexit?
Honest question. Not being facetious
This is perhaps a pedantic rather than a substantive point, but project fear was pretty much invariably used as a reference by Brexiteers to the catastrophising of Remainers. It may be open to debate how many of those catastrophes came about. But it is self evident that almost no Brexiteers believed in them.A majority voted for Brexit; many of them believed in "project fear".
Also as you saw in the Channel 4 documentary which may be fiction, but on this point ran true, why not use the bigger number if it makes the political point better?£350m vs £250m makes very little difference to most people's perception - they both fall into the category of 'a large number'. Leave could have achieved the same impact without exaggeration. here's a reasonable subreddit on why:
Eli5 Why are we so terrible at comprehending large numbers?
An anti-government vote, brought about by about 80% of the current sitting governmentThe EU Referendum vote for many people (in my opinion) was an emotional vote an anti-Governments vote often borne out from anger and frustration.
The internet has certainly tooled them up to spread their grifting certainly.I don't believe that. Grifters are going to grift with whatever resources they have.
I think it's more about the very old saying (Twain I think) about lies getting half way round the world before truth gets its boots on.
The one thing that the internet has done has allowed like minded idiots to gather together more easily.
That’s probable maximum gullibilityThe cult of Trump