I was wrong about starmer

Andy_W said:
You can't do anything when you're not in power. The same way Cobyn did absolutely zero, as did Milliband etc.
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Sorry but this is just absolute nonsense. Corbyn and Miliband did not do nothing, they both forced the governments of the day into numerous defeats and climb downs. I think Corbyn’s opposition broke the record for that didn’t they? And Miliband stood up for what he believed in as well.

I’m not saying Starmer’s opposition hasn’t done this but are there as many, or any, examples of him/his opposition defeating the government? Or taking a big stand against things that matter more than most. I know they abstained on extending free school meals, for example. And abstained on the welfare cap vote. But what are the big things they’ve stood up and actually opposed.

Not criticising, just interested to know what you come up with.
 
Andy_W said:
All looks good to me, doesn't seem very Tory as some on here claim he's going to be?

I think that's all a bit optimistic mind, but if he/ Labour managed even half of it I would be over the moon.
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That won't all get in the manifesto I wouldn't think.
 
Laughing said:
That won't all get in the manifesto I wouldn't think.
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Yeah, there's too much, and far too much ammo for the press, and it already looks like the right-wing press propaganda machine is starting to kick into gear more. The press are going to try and delete the last 3 years from people's memory, and seemingly have already successfully deleted the 10 years before that. It's going to get messy.

I would be pleased with them working on all of that (which even took me a while to gloss over in a rush), but we need to remember who our press are and how gullible the voters are.

In order for Labour to win, they need to keep in mind they're basically in four fights, against the Tories, the press, those led by the press/ swing voters and the anti-Starmer lot. It's a difficult tightrope and only Blair has managed to do that and win power back from the Tories in 50 years.
 
Andy_W said:
Yeah, there's too much, and far too much ammo for the press, and it already looks like the right-wing press propaganda machine is starting to kick into gear more. The press are going to try and delete the last 3 years from people's memory, and seemingly have already successfully deleted the 10 years before that. It's going to get messy.

I would be pleased with them working on all of that (which even took me a while to gloss over in a rush), but we need to remember who our press are and how gullible the voters are.

In order for Labour to win, they need to keep in mind they're basically in four fights, against the Tories, the press, those led by the press/ swing voters and the anti-Starmer lot. It's a difficult tightrope and only Blair has managed to do that and win power back from the Tories in 50 years.
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Tony Blair was a wildly different proposition to Keir Starmer though. He was far, far more radical in his politics and much more charismatic. He was clever and wise enough to build on what he inherited from John Smith. He didn’t march in and trash the lot. He also offered things people were interested in. He said he was going to make schools better, hospitals better, get people off to uni, create jobs, build houses, create wealth.

He banged on and on and ON about Tory sleaze, corruption, cronyism. He stood up to them in Parliament, in public and in the press. He was on telly every day hammering his message into the consciousness. He said he’d repeal the sh*t stuff and make things better.

Starmer is saying none of this is possible because the nation’s finances are akin to those after the end of the Second World War. But then not mentioning that the Labour government of that time embarked on a massive rebuilding project that included nationalising around a third of the economy, and creating the NHS and the welfare state.

These are things Starmer could do. He doesn’t want to do them. He seems happy enough to court the lapsed Tory and UKIP vote and fanny around the edges. He could offer something radical, or even just something approaching radical, at a time when the country is in dire need of it but he doesn’t want to. How many times does he have to tell you this. I can’t even remember the last time I heard him mention the word austerity.

Whatever anyone’s feelings on Blair, he was in a different stratosphere to Starmer and anyone else in Starmer’s leadership group.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
Sorry but this is just absolute nonsense. Corbyn and Miliband did not do nothing, they both forced the governments of the day into numerous defeats and climb downs. I think Corbyn’s opposition broke the record for that didn’t they? And Miliband stood up for what he believed in as well.

I’m not saying Starmer’s opposition hasn’t done this but are there as many, or any, examples of him/his opposition defeating the government? Or taking a big stand against things that matter more than most. I know they abstained on extending free school meals, for example. And abstained on the welfare cap vote. But what are the big things they’ve stood up and actually opposed.

Not criticising, just interested to know what you come up with.
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Nothing in the sense of actually being able to implement their own policies, whether that's Corbyn, Milliband or Starmer, the rule is the same for all. We need policies being voted in by ~350 Labour MP's, which 200 Tories are against, not the other way around etc.

Stopping some absolutely wild policies from the Tories which are even too far right for a lot of Tory MP's isn't doing a lot, it's the bare minimum and the bare minimum is nowhere near good enough, as the bad stuff which gets through every single day is far worse.

Obviously, a big problem which Starmer has inherited is they only have ~200 MP's, for Labour to stop anything they either need ~150 Tories abstaining or ~75 actually voting against their own party (not allowing for other parties). As bad as this is going to sound, sometimes it is just not worth fighting, or you need to fight in a different way.

Having a look back into those votes, they had a vote on school meals in 2020 which pretty much all of Labour voted for, but it still got hammered, LD vote in 2022 appeared weaker. Voting to raise a welfare cap does little when the expenditure is controlled by the Tories, we know what will happen there. If Labour get in they can raise the cap, and spend more in that area, by taking money from anywhere they like.
 
Andy_W said:
You can't do anything when you're not in power. The same way Cobyn did absolutely zero, as did Milliband etc.

Until you win, it's just words, and the winning and an active manifesto is worth 100x more than that.
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You're saying that because he wasn't in power when he made his pledges in the leadership election then it doesn't matter that he lied? He just needed to say whatever he needed to get in?
 
“sometimes it’s just not worth fighting” sums it all up IMO.

F*ck the marginalised, the poor, f*ck women, gay people, immigrants, the working poor, kids, the sick, the disabled, the elderly and infirm, the veterans sleeping in shop doorways, the hungry, the impoverished fleeing war and unimaginable suffering… f*ck it. It’s just not worth fighting lads.

Courting Uber Eats and Deliveroo and accepting big fat cash bungs from Lord Sainsbury, courting old racist UKIP voters, speaking out against Just Stop Oil or BLM… not a problem. Count me in.

Not worth fighting FFS. Jesus wept.
 
Chappy112 said:
You're saying that because he wasn't in power when he made his pledges in the leadership election then it doesn't matter that he lied? He just needed to say whatever he needed to get in?
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This is part of the mental gymnastics some people are prepared to undertake. What Starmer said does matter in some respects but not others. It depends on the context, which he has no control over except when he does, which means his words either do or don’t mean anything depending on what’s happening in the world. If it’s inconvenient then you either say something else or discard your original thoughts completely.

It’s infuriating, watching what’s happening here. Even some of the hacks responsibly for pushing Starmer for years are starting to wonder what he’s actually doing and if there’s anything he actually believes in.
 
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Chappy112 said:
You're saying that because he wasn't in power when he made his pledges in the leadership election then it doesn't matter that he lied? He just needed to say whatever he needed to get in?
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No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying it's not lying. I'm saying the world changed rapidly by an amount which the vast majority had no idea was even possible, which 100% needs to be factored for.

I'm saying the variables changed dramatically, which effectively made the pledges largely void, as within the space of a year there were 10 things with higher priorities.

We need to be focusing on the problems for now, and even 2025 going forward in all honesty (assuming nothing else to the same scale of crazy happens).
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
“sometimes it’s just not worth fighting” sums it all up IMO.

F*ck the marginalised, the poor, f*ck women, gay people, immigrants, the working poor, kids, the sick, the disabled, the elderly and infirm, the veterans sleeping in shop doorways, the hungry, the impoverished fleeing war and unimaginable suffering… f*ck it. It’s just not worth fighting lads.

Courting Uber Eats and Deliveroo and accepting big fat cash bungs from Lord Sainsbury, courting old racist UKIP voters, speaking out against Just Stop Oil or BLM… not a problem. Count me in.

Not worth fighting FFS. Jesus wept.
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That's not what I meant (at all), which I expect you would have realised. Either you've never read a word of what I've wrote previously, or you're just being disingenuous.

But anyway, Labour winning an election would do a lot more for the "women, gay people, immigrants, the working poor, kids, the sick, the disabled, the elderly and infirm, the veterans sleeping in shop doorways, the hungry, the impoverished fleeing war and unimaginable suffering" than a 1000 opposition votes which don't actually stop anything.
 
exiledinboro said:
Andy what has changed since Starmer became leader other than Covid which was known about
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A 3-year pandemic, as well as all the implications, was known about in Jan/ Feb 2020?

As for what has changed, are you for real?
But here's a short list, that isn't even half of it:
3 year pandemic
3 years of probably the worst Tory rule I can remember
2020 Recession
Pretty much a recession now/ zero growth for all of 22 & 23, forecast not much better for 24 and 25
A 4-year inflation curve, ~2.5% 2021, ~10% inflation 2022, ~6% inflation 2023, ~1% inflation 2024 (this all compounds, not in a good way)
Wages not matching that inflation
Russia starting war with Ukraine, which we're helping to fund Ukraine (we have to fund it)
Removal of the main gas pipelines to Europe (jacked energy cost)
UK energy costs are higher than pretty much anywhere (due to our terrible contracts, contracts not being signed)
UK national debt went from 85% to 103%
Interest rates getting jacked from 0.1% to 4.5%, when this trickles through into peoples expiring fixed mortgages there is going to be carnage. It's going to be >3.5% for probably at least 3 years.
NHS waiting lists almost doubled in that 3 years
Ambulance wait times through the roof (not checked these recently, but I imagine it's not great)
Long covid/ impact on future healthcare with the ageing population etc
BJ out, Truss out, Sunak in
Credit suisse forced rescue / a banking crisis in the US / potential for US to default on their debt (this could lead to a disaster like 2008)
 
exiledinboro said:
I want to check something with your numbers if you're saying the national debt is 103% (It's actually 104%)

What year are you referring to when you say it was 85%?

Given the contest us that this is in relation to Starmer breaking his pledges
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As you will know, it's hard to know what the debt it is exactly as the results are on a delay, and obviously shown in different ways, but keeping it on the same chart (taken from summarising ONS I think).

The debt was around 80-85% before the pandemic kicked off, so numbers from around December 19, probably released March 20?

Obvisouly Starmers pledges were in Feb 2020 and then the pandemic sent everything through the roof.


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This also, from here https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gove...ntdebtanddeficitforeurostatmaast/december2022


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