Quicksilvera
Well-known member
Prepare to be astonished!
Maddo constantly criticising Engel
- Thread starter davidmills
- Start date
That's not how positional play works - There's no immediate danger as the ball is going straight to Howson who should be clearing it. The blame is 90% Howson 10% Ayling and 0% Engel.
Engel is inline with his CB which is exactly where he's told to be.
Chelsea played the exact same formation last night. Look where Cucurella, who cost £60 million, is in the LB position - inline with the CB after the ball is switched from right to left.
Here's Crystal Palace - I think it's Munoz in the full pack position - Look at where Liverpool's winger is and compare it to where Armstrong was when he received he ball.
There's no immediate danger to him, like there was no immediate danger to Engel before Howson's mistake.
Fans can argue and have their opinion - but Carrick's opinion, and every coach/team mate/analyst would agree Engel was in the right position.
Laughing
Well-known member
It's people seeing what they want to see.
Engel has some flaws. He is good enough for a team chasing promotion and a long way from rubbish, as some would like us to believe.
TheWolfman
Well-known member
I like the way people say he makes errors in possession and it costs us goals, its completely over the top. Yes he has lapses in concentration its hist first season at this level. He often recovers his mistake and i cant think of anytime the opposition have scored directly from Engel giving it away.
Every player in our team makes errors in possession even hackney, VDB who are absolutely adored on here.
Hes not perfect like every player in this team. With some better players around him and definitely in front of him. A good striker (or latte on form) up top he will become the player we need him to be.
Defensively he can be beaten but so can Smith, Ayling, Dijksteel and any other full back who would be available at our price range... There are some very good wingers in this league who could rinse some good prem full backs.
We need to defend better as a team in the wide areas on both sides.
For me he should be starting next season.
Every player in our team makes errors in possession even hackney, VDB who are absolutely adored on here.
Hes not perfect like every player in this team. With some better players around him and definitely in front of him. A good striker (or latte on form) up top he will become the player we need him to be.
Defensively he can be beaten but so can Smith, Ayling, Dijksteel and any other full back who would be available at our price range... There are some very good wingers in this league who could rinse some good prem full backs.
We need to defend better as a team in the wide areas on both sides.
For me he should be starting next season.
Last edited:
indeedido
Well-known member
Yet there are no data points or analysis to support it.
Why should anybody have to trawl for data because it is the only thing you will accept…unless of course you agree with the assessment?
Laughing
Well-known member
There is data points to support that point of view. Engels ratings were much lower at the begining of the season and have improved through the season. He still has flaws and can be beat too easily on 1-on-1, the data is there to support that too.
So I agree with the assessment because the data supports it.
What made you think there was no data points to support the opinion?
indeedido
Well-known member
There were none in the post, but it supported your view, which seems to have to be cemented in whatever data you want to choose.
Not everyone leads their lives or forms their opinions based on endless data.
Many fans have watched Engel and have the view he is not a good player.
Very few actively want a player to fail, especially just to justify an opinion. I never do. If they pull our shirt on I want them to have a blinder and will say so. I was wrong about Forss early last season, but really happy to say so in H2. I was also wrong about Rhodes who I thought was bound to be a success and was revealed as very poor.
Professional criticism is not a personal affront, it goes with the job.
You don’t need to be a statistician to form an opinion, nor base everything on available stats for your opinion to be valid or accurate.
Most people who throw stats around don’t have clarity on what metrics really mean, how metrics are measured or whether/how they inter-relate.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
You clearly are a statistical pro, but you are equally susceptible to confirmation bias, as are we all.
I’ve watched Engel for a long time now. I don’t come on after every match having a go, but I see a footballer a long way short of being good enough for a promotion winning team.
indeedido
Well-known member
There were none in the post, but it supported your view, which seems to have to be cemented in whatever data you want to choose.
Not everyone leads their lives or forms their opinions based on endless data.
Many fans have watched Engel and have the view he is not a good player.
Very few actively want a player to fail, especially just to justify an opinion. I never do. If they pull our shirt on I want them to have a blinder and will say so. I was wrong about Forss early last season, but really happy to say so in H2. I was also wrong about Rhodes who I thought was bound to be a success and was revealed as very poor.
Professional criticism is not a personal affront, it goes with the job.
You don’t need to be a statistician to form an opinion, nor base everything on available stats for your opinion to be valid or accurate.
Most people who throw stats around don’t have clarity on what metrics really mean, how metrics are measured or whether/how they inter-relate.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
You clearly are a statistical pro, but you are equally susceptible to confirmation bias, as are we all.
I’ve watched Engel for a long time now. I don’t come on after every match having a go, but I see a footballer a long way short of being good enough for a promotion winning team.
Laughing
Well-known member
I posted the data earlier in this thread if you care to look.
Of course we are all subject to confirmation bias. It's much tougher to look at facts and make them fit your bias though.
And in any event, I have said multiple times on this thread that engel has weaknesses, weaknesses that were glaringly obvious at the beginning of the season. He has improved and will be here next season.
If we identify a better lb then let's go buy them. I have nothing against improving the squad. However, we have other more important weaknesses to address.
I've never really rated Messi.... Saw him play once a few years ago and he was only a 7/10, so that's my opinion of him.
Doesn't matter how many goals he's scored, assists he's made, or any actual data about him... My opinion is my opinion and I'm going to stick with it forever.
FabioPorkpie
Well-known member
Mate, you should have watched him over a season. At least 25+ games. Then you’d have formulated a more valid opinion of his abilities based on what you saw with your own eyes. You wouldn’t have needed stats to ascertain that he was brilliant.
FabioPorkpie
Well-known member
Sick of hearing about these stats so thought I'd have a quick look and compare to our other full backs in the squad. Not sure what all the fuss is about. They are average at best and pretty similar to Luke Thomas. In fact if you were purely looking at the stats you would probably put Thomas in the team in front of Engel as his defensive stats are better while his stats in possession are very similar,
In Possession
Touches (per 90 Mins)
Engel - 75.9
Ayling - 73.1
Smith - 75.6
Thomas - 82.3
Dijksteel - 74.2
Pass Completion
Engel - 77.4%
Ayling - 79.4%
Smith - 85.5%
Thomas - 77.5%
Dijksteel - 84.7%
Key passes (per 90 mins)
Engel - 1.02
Ayling - 1.30
Smith - 1.16
Thomas - 1.04
Dijksteel - 0.82
Successful Take-Ons
Engel - 41.9%
Ayling - 50%
Smith - N/A
Thomas - 50%
Dijksteel - 37.5%
Progressive Carry Distance (per 90 mins)
Engel - 73.3
Ayling - 92.9
Smith - 70.2
Thomas - 57.3
Dijksteel - 130.7
Assists (Per 90 mins)
Engel - 0.15
Ayling - 0.31
Smith - 0
Thomas - 0
Dijksteel - 0
Shot Creating Actions (Per 90 mins)
Engel - 1.78
Ayling - 2.59
Smith - 1.88
Thomas - 2.07
Dijksteel - 2.05
Crosses (Per 90 Mins)
Engel - 2.47
Ayling - 3.09
Smith - 1.86
Thomas - 2.50
Dijksteel - 0.55
Goals
Engel - 0.07
Ayling - 0
Smith - 0
Thomas - 0
Dijksteel - 0
Defending
Tackles (Per 90 Mins)
Engel - 2.47
Ayling - 1.79
Smith - 2.33
Thomas - 3.13
Dijksteel - 1.10
Tackle Success
Engel - 54.7%
Ayling - 37.8%
Smith - 57.1%
Thomas - 64.7%
Dijksteel - 40.0%
Blocks (Per 90 Mins)
Engel - 1.60
Ayling - 0.93
Smith - 1.40
Thomas - 2.08
Dijksteel - 1.92
Aerial Duals Won
Engel - 57.7%
Ayling - 54.5%
Smith - 66.7%
Thomas - 61.5%
Dijksteel - 50%
In Possession
Touches (per 90 Mins)
Engel - 75.9
Ayling - 73.1
Smith - 75.6
Thomas - 82.3
Dijksteel - 74.2
Pass Completion
Engel - 77.4%
Ayling - 79.4%
Smith - 85.5%
Thomas - 77.5%
Dijksteel - 84.7%
Key passes (per 90 mins)
Engel - 1.02
Ayling - 1.30
Smith - 1.16
Thomas - 1.04
Dijksteel - 0.82
Successful Take-Ons
Engel - 41.9%
Ayling - 50%
Smith - N/A
Thomas - 50%
Dijksteel - 37.5%
Progressive Carry Distance (per 90 mins)
Engel - 73.3
Ayling - 92.9
Smith - 70.2
Thomas - 57.3
Dijksteel - 130.7
Assists (Per 90 mins)
Engel - 0.15
Ayling - 0.31
Smith - 0
Thomas - 0
Dijksteel - 0
Shot Creating Actions (Per 90 mins)
Engel - 1.78
Ayling - 2.59
Smith - 1.88
Thomas - 2.07
Dijksteel - 2.05
Crosses (Per 90 Mins)
Engel - 2.47
Ayling - 3.09
Smith - 1.86
Thomas - 2.50
Dijksteel - 0.55
Goals
Engel - 0.07
Ayling - 0
Smith - 0
Thomas - 0
Dijksteel - 0
Defending
Tackles (Per 90 Mins)
Engel - 2.47
Ayling - 1.79
Smith - 2.33
Thomas - 3.13
Dijksteel - 1.10
Tackle Success
Engel - 54.7%
Ayling - 37.8%
Smith - 57.1%
Thomas - 64.7%
Dijksteel - 40.0%
Blocks (Per 90 Mins)
Engel - 1.60
Ayling - 0.93
Smith - 1.40
Thomas - 2.08
Dijksteel - 1.92
Aerial Duals Won
Engel - 57.7%
Ayling - 54.5%
Smith - 66.7%
Thomas - 61.5%
Dijksteel - 50%
indeedido
Well-known member
It’s strange, the first time I saw Messi play I thought he was special.
I’ve thought he was ever since, right through to him winning the last World Cup.
I think he’s scored quite a few goals, made loads of assists too. I’ve never needed the stats to realise he’s a bit good.
I’m a bit surprised you haven’t changed your mind.
Laughing
Well-known member
Over how many games for Thomas? This is kind of key. Played what 9 games for us? Have the stats settled? The same could be said for Dijksteel.
Unless, of course you are comparing career stats which again is not really relevant when a player changes teams.
Ayling had been superb so no complaints there he has been terrific and has played 17 games for us.
Where did you take these stats from?
Stats taken from FBREF in all championship matches played for boro this season.
Leif Davies just won the championship LB of the season... Stats from FBREF (the same website yours are from)...
Tackles per 90 mins
Davies 1.82
Engel 2.47
Tackles won
Davies 1.33
Engel 1.49
% of dribbers tackled
Davies 66.2
Engel 54.7
Blocks
Davies 1.1
Engel 1.6
Clearances
Davies 1.53
Engel 2.73
Errors
Davies 0
Engel 0.07
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I'll wait for your next "stats don't mean anything" reply...