Meanwhile, in Sweden...

[bear66]

Just had a quick look. Shocked me that, I thought we would be one of the higher.

Did look like we have 1 of the highest public funded systems in the world though.

If you spend more then you pay for it. When I say you I don't mean everybody, I mean the people who can afford to.

There are a lot of similarly funded health services where there is a requirement for health insurance. Canada is particularly good.

The USA puts more public money per capita into health than the UK and then more than as much again as private health insurance. No wonder they are so fearful of losing job related insurance . . . usually for health problems.

 

[borolad259]

We could put as much into our health service that other developed nations do. Bottom of that League is an indictment of our society.

Absolutely Bear. I'm not sure that I agree with the scientist ... certainly not on everything ... and I think that the greater issue will not be the olod sacrificing the lives of the young (in quality, opportunity etc ... I mean we all love Mum, Dad, Grandma and Grandad) ... but the developed world sacrificing the poorer world. But that impact is likely to come down the line .... food shortages, medecine shortages etc. Also, there will be poorer people in countries like Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco, Andalusia etc who will suffer greatly because of the lack of tourism.

 

[bear66]

Absolutely Bear. I'm not sure that I agree with the scientist ... certainly not on everything ... and I think that the greater issue will not be the olod sacrificing the lives of the young (in quality, opportunity etc ... I mean we all love Mum, Dad, Grandma and Grandad) ... but the developed world sacrificing the poorer world. But that impact is likely to come down the line .... food shortages, medecine shortages etc. Also, there will be poorer people in countries like Turkey, Tunisia, Morocco, Andalusia etc who will suffer greatly because of the lack of tourism.

It's going to be years of living a different life, and a much, much worse life in poorer countries. Globalism will be challenged at every level as countries look inwards for survival.

 

[Facefuzz]

There are a lot of similarly funded health services where there is a requirement for health insurance. Canada is particularly good.

The USA puts more public money per capita into health than the UK and then more than as much again as private health insurance. No wonder they are so fearful of losing job related insurance . . . usually for health problems.

Canada with higher life expectancy and america with lower than us.
They say covid is a leveller. In places like america it's not. If you have more money you stand a better chance. Atleast here we all effectively are given the same chance once the ambulance arrives.

 

[borolad259]

I think that, as the virus does the rounds year on year, our resistance will improve, but one key lesson we should learn is that we have to protect the old and vulnerable more effectively. A large part of this will be making sure that everything is done to improve their immune health as much as possible. The elderly and poorly are most likely to be deficient in Vitamin A (our first line of defence against this type of virus at the muuucus membrane), Vitamin D and Vit C. It's a relatively cheap and easy measure to ensure that they receive good nutrition and supplementation as a prophylactic.

 

[borolad259]

This worries me more than the sickness itself. I have vulnerable parents and inlaws, but this threat of poverty amongst people who can't cope is a greater concern. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-covid-19-vulnerable-countries-pay-the-price

 

[Randy]

This worries me more than the sickness itself. I have vulnerable parents and inlaws, but this threat of poverty amongst people who can't cope is a greater concern. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...n-covid-19-vulnerable-countries-pay-the-price

This is another reason why the restrictions need to start been loosened this weekend. Because if it does kick off in Africa it's going to cause all sorts of issues from mass famines to civil wars. Displacement of people from all over the African continent.

I also came across this graph earlier today, what gives?
.

 

[bear66]

This is another reason why the restrictions need to start been loosened this weekend. Because if it does kick off in Africa it's going to outlinecause all sorts of issues from mass famines to civil wars. Displacement of people from all over the African continent.

I also came across this graph earlier today, what gives?
.

The strategy is going to be outlined this weekend. I can't see much happening until 1 June. I'm not sure we're a big player in the overall scheme of the world economy at the moment.

 

[Randy]

The strategy is going to be outlined this weekend. I can't see much happening until 1 June. I'm not sure we're a big player in the overall scheme of the world economy at the moment.

Just outlining though isn't good enough, hundreds of thousands if not millions of people in this country, rightly or wrongly, are expecting Boris to announce some loosening of the restrictions this week. I fear for what may happen if he doesn't.

 

[borolad259]

This is another reason why the restrictions need to start been loosened this weekend. Because if it does kick off in Africa it's going to cause all sorts of issues from mass famines to civil wars. Displacement of people from all over the African continent.

I also came across this graph earlier today, what gives?
.

There were dire predictions in many quarters about what would befall Sweden. All of them wildly off the mark. It has in fact played out pretty much as Tegnell predicted ... other than their failure in old people's homes (something they have in common with Spain, Italy and the UK). The Imperial College models were clearly quite poor ... Johan Giesecke said as much and explained why. What they did serve to do was scare a lot of people, which may have helped with civil obedience on lockdown over here.

 

[Liamo]

There were dire predictions in many quarters about what would befall Sweden. All of them wildly off the mark

I'm not sure how wildly off the mark they were. Compared to other neighboring Scandinavian countries with similar demographics who implemented much stricter lockdown policies, Sweden's number of deaths per capita is much higher. It's nearly seven times higher than Norway's, for instance. Although the death rate is falling now, their rolling 7-day average of deaths per capita remains stubbornly high.



Also, I don't quite understand these repeated efforts to deflect from the actual death rate by excusing it on the basis that so many of the deaths involved the elderly in care homes. Surely, whether the people died in homes or not they're still part of the overall death toll for the country and who's to say these deaths are not due in part to the lack of social distancing meaning that the people working in, making deliveries to or visiting the care homes had a higher level of exposure to the virus?

To me it's almost as if they're saying that the deaths of all these old people don't really matter (or count). For instance, you could look at the US and say, "You know, if we exclude deaths in New York, our per capita death rate in the country is not as bad." To me, it's highly disingenuous to just arbitrarily exclude a whole chunk of the deaths in your country and say it means the overall total is not really that bad.

 

[bear66]

I'm not sure how wildly off the mark they were. Compared to other neighboring Scandinavian countries with similar demographics who implemented much stricter lockdown policies, Sweden's number of deaths per capita is much higher. It's nearly seven times higher than Norway's, for instance. Although the death rate is falling now, their rolling 7-day average of deaths per capita remains stubbornly high.

View attachment 2514

Also, I don't quite understand these repeated efforts to deflect from the actual death rate by excusing it on the basis that so many of the deaths involved the elderly in care homes. Surely, whether the people died in homes or not they're still part of the overall death toll for the country and who's to say these deaths are not due in part to the lack of social distancing meaning that the people working in, making deliveries to or visiting the care homes had a higher level of exposure to the virus?

To me it's almost as if they're saying that the deaths of all these old people don't really matter (or count). For instance, you could look at the US and say, "You know, if we exclude deaths in New York, our per capita death rate in the country is not as bad." To me, it's highly disingenuous to just arbitrarily exclude a whole chunk of the deaths in your country and say it means the overall total is not really that bad.

Visitors to care homes weren't stopped until 3 April, yet Sweden had it's first case in January and then more outbreaks from the end of February. The Swedish foreign minister said last week that there were more deaths and expected, so things have not gone as planned. In reality, there has been a lot of consensual social distancing but poor protection of the old and vulnerable by governmental actions.

 

[borolad259]

I'm not sure how wildly off the mark they were. Compared to other neighboring Scandinavian countries with similar demographics who implemented much stricter lockdown policies, Sweden's number of deaths per capita is much higher. It's nearly seven times higher than Norway's, for instance. Although the death rate is falling now, their rolling 7-day average of deaths per capita remains stubbornly high.

View attachment 2514

Also, I don't quite understand these repeated efforts to deflect from the actual death rate by excusing it on the basis that so many of the deaths involved the elderly in care homes. Surely, whether the people died in homes or not they're still part of the overall death toll for the country and who's to say these deaths are not due in part to the lack of social distancing meaning that the people working in, making deliveries to or visiting the care homes had a higher level of exposure to the virus?

To me it's almost as if they're saying that the deaths of all these old people don't really matter (or count). For instance, you could look at the US and say, "You know, if we exclude deaths in New York, our per capita death rate in the country is not as bad." To me, it's highly disingenuous to just arbitrarily exclude a whole chunk of the deaths in your country and say it means the overall total is not really that bad.

Denmark, Norway and Finland still have to deal with the virus, whether that's now or next winter. Unless a successful treatment or vaccine is found imminently. And the Swedes absolutely are not diminishing the impact of the elderly deaths. Far from it. At least they are up front about the fact that they failed to keep it out of the care homes. Though, I suspect, in the end, it will turn out to be nigh on impossible to keep it out of care homes indefinitely once the virus is at large in the community, simply because people in care homes, need care ... and that means medical staff coming in. And they haven't just abandoned the elderly in homes as happened in Italy. Stockholm is a large, multi-cultural city of 2.5 million people. A massively disproportionate number of the deaths there were in the Somali community ... not something they used to diminish the figures, they just said "We need to understand why this is".

They still have substantially fewer deaths per million than the UK, Italy and Spain and are clearly well past the peak. Children haven't been locked in the home for 6 to 8 weeks, they have been going to school. And, although the economy has been badly hit, it'll be nowhere near the damage in Italy and Spain, who are heading, I suspect for terrible deprivation and social unrest.

To be clear, I am not certain that the Swedish approach was the correct one. We won't know until maybe next year. But it certainly doesn't appear to have been the catastrophe that some people were predicting.

 

[Alvez_48]

Just to add Dr Ioannidis has finished his study, the danger to people under the age of 65 is approximately the same as commuting to work in Germany.

 

[hopesoboro]

Denmark, Norway and Finland still have to deal with the virus, whether that's now or next winter. Unless a successful treatment or vaccine is found imminently. And the Swedes absolutely are not diminishing the impact of the elderly deaths. Far from it. At least they are up front about the fact that they failed to keep it out of the care homes. Though, I suspect, in the end, it will turn out to be nigh on impossible to keep it out of care homes indefinitely once the virus is at large in the community, simply because people in care homes, need care ... and that means medical staff coming in. And they haven't just abandoned the elderly in homes as happened in Italy. Stockholm is a large, multi-cultural city of 2.5 million people. A massively disproportionate number of the deaths there were in the Somali community ... not something they used to diminish the figures, they just said "We need to understand why this is".

They still have substantially fewer deaths per million than the UK, Italy and Spain and are clearly well past the peak. Children haven't been locked in the home for 6 to 8 weeks, they have been going to school. And, although the economy has been badly hit, it'll be nowhere near the damage in Italy and Spain, who are heading, I suspect for terrible deprivation and social unrest.

To be clear, I am not certain that the Swedish approach was the correct one. We won't know until maybe next year. But it certainly doesn't appear to have been the catastrophe that some people were predicting.

"And they haven't just abandoned the elderly in homes as happened in Italy. "
Can you give us more details concerning this statement?

 

[Alvez_48]

Have you heard of Google?

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-silent-coronavirus-covid19-massacre-in-italy-milan-lombardy-nursing-care-homes-elderly/

 

[bear66]

Anger in Sweden over care of the elderly
Elderly pay the price in Sweden

 

[dooderooni]

Just to add Dr Ioannidis has finished his study, the danger to people under the age of 65 is approximately the same as commuting to work in Germany.

How can he say the death rate will be similar to that of the seasonal flu when inside 4 months, Coronavirus has outstripped the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu? That's with stay at home orders in place to limit the infection chances as well.

It's all well and good saying it might ultimately have the same mortality % rate as the flu, but if it is of an order of magnitude far more infectious than the flu then it will as a matter of course kill far more people.

We need to start rebuilding economies and looking after the most vulnerable, but most of these issues beyond the actual virus can be traced back to the results of years and years of government policies that have created a society where this pandemic can cripple it in a short time. It's about time some of these experts started showing some emotional intelligence by addressing those issues and inequalities rather than simply trying to re-establish the status quo.

 

[Alvez_48]

How can he say the death rate will be similar to that of the seasonal flu when inside 4 months, Coronavirus has outstripped the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu? That's with stay at home orders in place to limit the infection chances as well.

It's all well and good saying it might ultimately have the same mortality % rate as the flu, but if it is of an order of magnitude far more infectious than the flu then it will as a matter of course kill far more people.

We need to start rebuilding economies and looking after the most vulnerable, but most of these issues beyond the actual virus can be traced back to the results of years and years of government policies that have created a society where this pandemic can cripple it in a short time. It's about time some of these experts started showing some emotional intelligence by addressing those issues and inequalities rather than simply trying to re-establish the status quo.

He can say it because he's done the actual science, unlike Ferguson the serial modeller of apocalypse who repeatedly gets it horrifically wrong.
See you just don't want to believe what's Infront of your face ... Flu is a terrible disease that often kills people, normal flu seasons regularly kill 60+ thousand people in a year in this country. We've not had one for a while this year for instance we're at approximately 35,000.

 

[bear66]

He can say it because he's done the actual science, unlike Ferguson the serial modeller of apocalypse who repeatedly gets it horrifically wrong.
See you just don't want to believe what's Infront of your face ... Flu is a terrible disease that often kills people, normal flu seasons regularly kill 60+ thousand people in a year in this country. We've not had one for a while this year for instance we're at approximately 35,000.

Has he locked down the world in a normal flu season? If not, he hasn't done the science.