Not getting rid of my 2.5 Litre Petrol

[Andy_W]

Maybe I'm unlucky! But BP pulse at Doubletree manchester piccadilly has only worked once for me, and I've had complete failures on all the units at Bakewell (and there are a few) at the Holiday Inn in Doncaster. and at a hotel who's name I can't remember in Salford Quays. That one was a classic as tfor two days the didn't even answer the phone when I called to get it looked at. Also my own apartment has BPpulse chargers which failed and BP took 4 months to come and repair them.

In short: I don't like BP pulse!!

Which has got me thinking: what is the most reliable charger you have had? Mine is Instavolt, that have not once let me down. I'm one of the rare people who even had a supercharger fail on my. luckily there are so many stalls at the locations usually that you can just move to another. Technically I've not had an Ionity (yes, I know, I'm rich!) fail to charge. Although one memorable "splash and dash" where I added about 6KW cost me 75 euros because the charger didn't register that I'd stopped it. Checking on the app it still thought I was charging 5 days later.

To be fair I only go for the fastest chargers, so it's pretty much Instavolt all the way on that, and never had an issue, or lack of availability.

Must have used maybe 5 BP pulse though, and they've worked every time, other than one which got reset pretty quickly. Loads of the time it's down to the cars, not the chargers, but it is all getting more standardised, which is one thing the government have forced (to their credit, for once).

Apparently, Porsche are putting 350kW chargers at their dealerships, but no doubt that would only be available to Porsche owners, which is a bit snobby!

 

[bungydinsdale]

Funny, but horse owners said similar things when the ICE came into effect:

Here's a quote from the US Congressional Record in 1875:

The dangers are obvious. Stores of gasoline in the hands of people interested primarily in profit would constitute a fire and explosive hazard of the first rank. Horseless carriages propelled by gasoline might attain speeds of 14 or even 20 miles per hour. The menace to our people of vehicles of this type hurtling through our streets and along our roads and poisoning the atmosphere would call for prompt legislative action even if the military and economic implications were not so overwhelming… [T]he cost of producing [gasoline] is far beyond the financial capacity of private industry… In addition the development of this new power may displace the use of horses, which would wreck our agriculture.

And we all know what happened after that.

So you can either be stuck in the past, a man/woman out of time, clinging on to your petrol fumes, or leap into the future.

My mate's Leaf has 220,000km on the clock and still goes really well. He reckons in that time he's saved twice the cost of it in petrol alone, never mind the savings form not having to replace and repair parts of the engine every year or two.

To be fair though we're bit better placed in NZ as about 80% of electricity comes from renewable energy, primarily hydropower and geothermal power.

 

[Laughing]

I did read an article today from volvo that was interesting and it takes 70k miles before an eV becomes carbon neutral. Above 70k miles its all payback from an environment perspective.

The manufacture of ev's uses 70% more dirty energy than a conventional combustion engine.

I post this so people can get perspective on how clean an eV is.

The article said nothing about disposal comparison or how the rare earth metals are mined.

Oh the dirty energy figure assumed the electricity for charging comes from non renewable sources.

 

[SmallTown]

To be fair I only go for the fastest chargers, so it's pretty much Instavolt all the way on that, and never had an issue, or lack of availability.

Must have used maybe 5 BP pulse though, and they've worked every time, other than one which got reset pretty quickly. Loads of the time it's down to the cars, not the chargers, but it is all getting more standardised, which is one thing the government have forced (to their credit, for once).

Apparently, Porsche are putting 350kW chargers at their dealerships, but no doubt that would only be available to Porsche owners, which is a bit snobby!

They already have one at west London porsche

I haven’t dared pop in and ask to use it mind!

 

[SmallTown]

Oh the dirty energy figure assumed the electricity for charging comes from non renewable sources.

so basically this figure is relevant for Poland and China then.
It’s true that producing an EV uses more resource than an ICE but not much more.
Hard to do a direct comparison but in one study they calculated environment impact of a Tesla v a Toyota Corolla. In the US you would have to drive 13000 miles before the Tesla started to become better for the environment. So any two year old Tesla is probably saving the planet! In Norway, that figure drops to 8000 miles. But as I have mentioned in China and Poland it’s actually 87000 miles. So yes, EV alone can’t save the planet unless we produce clean energy too

 

[Laughing]

so basically this figure is relevant for Poland and China then.
It’s true that producing an EV uses more resource than an ICE but not much more.
Hard to do a direct comparison but in one study they calculated environment impact of a Tesla v a Toyota Corolla. In the US you would have to drive 13000 miles before the Tesla started to become better for the environment. So any two year old Tesla is probably saving the planet! In Norway, that figure drops to 8000 miles. But as I have mentioned in China and Poland it’s actually 87000 miles. So yes, EV alone can’t save the planet unless we produce clean energy too

No idea country to country the volvo article seemed relevant for someone trying to make an environmental decision. I am not sure how you come to your figures nor am I sure how volvo came to theirs.

I suspect volvo figures are a reasonable approximation.

 

[SmallTown]

Funny, but horse owners said similar things when the ICE came into effect:

Here's a quote from the US Congressional Record in 1875:



And we all know what happened after that.

So you can either be stuck in the past, a man/woman out of time, clinging on to your petrol fumes, or leap into the future.

My mate's Leaf has 220,000km on the clock and still goes really well. He reckons in that time he's saved twice the cost of it in petrol alone, never mind the savings form not having to replace and repair parts of the engine every year or two.

To be fair though we're bit better placed in NZ as about 80% of electricity comes from renewable energy, primarily hydropower and geothermal power.

That’s good going. Is it a revision 1 leaf? Even as a staunch defender of EV I’m surprised the battery isn’t at about 50% capacity by now. As far as EV go that one’s pretty basic and old technology so it’s good to hear of one doing long distances. As we have already said the motors themselves will do twice that easily. It’s the batteries that will wear done

 

[SmallTown]

No idea country to country the volvo article seemed relevant for someone trying to make an environmental decision. I am not sure how you come to your figures nor am I sure how volvo came to theirs.

I suspect volvo figures are a reasonable approximation.

Mine were from a study by the Argonne national laboratory in Chicago

 

[Laughing]

Mine were from a study by the Argonne national laboratory in Chicago

Already said where my figures were from. I have no skin in this game nor do I particularly care. I thought it was interesting that a manufacturer weighed in on the debate. You are of course, free to ignore it if you wish.

 

[SmallTown]

Already said where my figures were from. I have no skin in this game nor do I particularly care. I thought it was interesting that a manufacturer weighed in on the debate. You are of course, free to ignore it i

I didn't ignore it. And I didn't ask where your figures came from, nor did I doubt them. You simply have to stop trying to argue with me on every topic it's tedious now.

I was just sharing the figures I had. You shouldn't be so angry given that they more or less corroborate with your figures.

 

[br14]

so basically this figure is relevant for Poland and China then.

And for balance...

 

[SmallTown]

View attachment 27452
And for balance...
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Yup we are all going in the right direction. Just painfully slowly. But every windfarm, solar panel and hydroelectric damn that gets connected to the grid makes EV ever better for the environment.

 

[Andy_W]

View attachment 27452
And for balance...
View attachment 27453

That's the thing, the EV is clean to run now, and will only get cleaner (better tech, more efficient, greener fuel sources), can't say the same for ICE as they hit a wall with that a while back and haven't gained much since (and development has pretty much stopped).

Renewables powered mining gear and manufacturing machinery would make a big dent in the manufacturing/ mineral extraction emissions, but this is easier said than done. This is, even more, the case if the mining is done in a place which is rapidly developing so relies on fossil fuels more as a whole!

Recycling of batteries will get better, and there would need to be less of it per mile driven, due to efficiency gains, so that will only get greener too.

I read somewhere (I think it was a wood fuel company, so take it with a pinch of salt) that most people count wood as a bad fuel to burn, but they don't account for what the tree takes out of the atmosphere before it gets chopped down and burned. This would make sense mind, especially if the wood is dried before burning, and burned efficiently.

 

[Laughing]

I didn't ignore it. And I didn't ask where your figures came from, nor did I doubt them. You simply have to stop trying to argue with me on every topic it's tedious now.

I was just sharing the figures I had. You shouldn't be so angry given that they more or less corroborate with your figures.

Oh dear

 

[JustTheGent]

Probably wise not to get too high on recycling these batteries as they are not designed to be recyclable. And let's face it, if these things were going to last then recycling them wouldn't be so much of an issue. That tells me they don't last. They aren't proven and I strongly suspect they won't stand the test of time. We also know that efficient and well functioning recycling industries aren't an easy thing to implement. They still can't even do it properly with plastic. Obviously you or I or the man walking his dog can say this is going to happen and that is going to happen in so many years. But that doesn't mean anything. Especially as these things have been said for quite a while now.

And just remember:

The range is not the range! Cold weather can reduce battery performance by up to 50%.

The range is not the range! Battery is recommended to operate between 20% and 80% to avoid problems. That's 60% of capacity....and throw in some cold weather!?

The running costs are not the running costs! Obviously. See above.

Battery drains constantly, even when not in use.

Constant charging duty when you return home. Don't forget to plug in!

Used EVs, did the first owner look after the battery. Probably not if they were on PCP. They were paying to drive it not look after it! Tough luck who gets the battery next!

 

[Laughing]

That's the thing, the EV is clean to run now, and will only get cleaner (better tech, more efficient, greener fuel sources), can't say the same for ICE as they hit a wall with that a while back and haven't gained much since (and development has pretty much stopped).

Renewables powered mining gear and manufacturing machinery would make a big dent in the manufacturing/ mineral extraction emissions, but this is easier said than done. This is, even more, the case if the mining is done in a place which is rapidly developing so relies on fossil fuels more as a whole!

Recycling of batteries will get better, and there would need to be less of it per mile driven, due to efficiency gains, so that will only get greener too.

I read somewhere (I think it was a wood fuel company, so take it with a pinch of salt) that most people count wood as a bad fuel to burn, but they don't account for what the tree takes out of the atmosphere before it gets chopped down and burned. This would make sense mind, especially if the wood is dried before burning, and burned efficiently.

I am sure ev's will get cleaner but to say the combustion engine has gone as far as it can is clearly wrong in terms of efficiency and power. Compare any car from 20 years ago to a 2021 model and they are more powerful and burn less fuel per mile.

You could say the same about battery tech, it's a mature tech that companies have to spend a lot of money to improve.

 

[SmallTown]

Probably wise not to get too high on recycling these batteries as they are not designed to be recyclable. And let's face it, if these things were going to last then recycling them wouldn't be so much of an issue. That tells me they don't last. They aren't proven and I strongly suspect they won't stand the test of time. We also know that efficient and well functioning recycling industries aren't an easy thing to implement. They still can't even do it properly with plastic. Obviously you or I or the man walking his dog can say this is going to happen and that is going to happen in so many years. But that doesn't mean anything. Especially as these things have been said for quite a while now.

And just remember:

The range is not the range! Cold weather can reduce battery performance by up to 50%.

The range is not the range! Battery is recommended to operate between 20% and 80% to avoid problems. That's 60% of capacity....and throw in some cold weather!?

The running costs are not the running costs! Obviously. See above.

Battery drains constantly, even when not in use.

Constant charging duty when you return home. Don't forget to plug in!

Used EVs, did the first owner look after the battery. Probably not if they were on PCP. They were paying to drive it not look after it! Tough luck who gets the battery next!

I don't think I've seen such a concentrated level of FUD anti EV lies for about 10 years. It's actually amusing that you hold on to anti EV propaganda so long after it has been disproven.

We are trying to have a serious thread about EV now there no need for old skool FUD lies

 

[SmallTown]

I am sure ev's will get cleaner but to say the combustion engine has gone as far as it can is clearly wrong in terms of efficiency and power. Compare any car from 20 years ago to a 2021 model and they are more powerful and burn less fuel per mile.

You could say the same about battery tech, it's a mature tech that companies have to spend a lot of money to improve.

They still burn fuel though. Which is the absolute salient point. Its what we need to get away from. Which is why hybrids are such a scam now we have full EVs

 

[Laughing]

They still burn fuel though. Which is the absolute salient point. Its what we need to get away from. Which is why hybrids are such a scam now we have full EVs

I don't dispute that, but petrol engines are getting better all the time, albeit still dirty.

We actually need better batteries made from sustainable resources and clean electricity for ev's to be the longterm answer. I am not sure they are, I think they are a stepping stone. Though we will have clean electricity very soon. Storage in car batterries probably isn't the answer.

 

[SmallTown]

I don't dispute that, but petrol engines are getting better all the time, albeit still dirty.

We actually need better batteries made from sustainable resources and clean electricity for ev's to be the longterm answer. I am not sure they are, I think they are a stepping stone. Though we will have clean electricity very soon. Storage in car batterries probably isn't the answer.

I don’t know about that. The problem with sustainable energy is it can’t be turned on and off with demand like traditional power. With the exception of hydro I guess but things like wind and solar, we get the power when the weather lets us so energy storage will have to be investigated. If it’s not batteries then we need something else
I like the way we are going to get Norway to store our energy: if we have an excess of wind power we send it to Norway to pump water into a reservoir for us. We can then reclaim the hydro when needed. Need sure if this would be feasible for the world though, nor how much loss is incurred in a system. I’ve invested in a company that is using massive capacitors to store energy for when it’s needed. I hope that is a success.
So energy storage from sustianbles needs to be addressed.
The other elephant in the room is does the earth provide enough sustainable energy for the population? I don’t think so. So do we concentrate on something that provides massive energy for minimal resource and environment damage: nuclear. Not just fusion but can we harness fission?