Rofesleg
Well-known member
I think Putin, and in fact most people, underestimated Zelenskyy.
He was after all just a comedian who would be out of his depth. He would either flee the country or surrender immediately.
Nope.
The end?
- Thread starter borolad259
- Start date
He was after all just a comedian who would be out of his depth. He would either flee the country or surrender immediately.
Nope.
Spot on. For example, Odessa is a Russian speaking city with a large Russian minority, as with several other areas in Ukraine unoccupied by Russia. Russia has been indiscriminately bombing and attacking both Ukrainians and Russians (and others) so I don’t think they have much support within Ukraine’s borders.
As for Putin not knowing the situation, his “3 day war” was not to be because he banked on Kyiv and Zelenskyy’s government capitulating quickly and the rest of the country falling into line. That didn’t happen, in fact they were pushed back with significant losses. Muttley’s posts have covered this excellently.
No. You are guilty of Islamofobia in that case.
There are many many Islamists who advocate increasing the influence of Islam, the vast majority by peaceful means. A tiny minority support violence.
Not sure that would suit your agenda though.
It’s also a label for Islamic fundamentalists , so apt in this case.
This is about Ukraine anyway , I’m not interested in discussing being politically correct concerning the religion of Islam . I stand by what I said , I think they would be the only ones mental enough to use nukes if some got their hands on one
CanaryYellowShirt
Active member
Sorry to butt in on you Redwurzel but whoa there over this bit... "US and UK military and politicians thought the same about Iraq" should be challenged if I may? I was heavily involved at Divisional level in the planning and execution of the ill fated invasion of Iraq in 2003 and was part of the initial breech and I can assure you that at no point did the notion that it would be an easy/straightforward task fleetingly even enter the equation. Sure mistakes were made, some of them awful but blame the politicians by all means but not accepting that the UK military were glib about the task, Quite the opposite.
Druss_The_Legend
Well-known member
Just to expand on what other people have said.
In February 2022 the world thought that Russia was a military superpower just behind the USA, for generations the Western population had lived in some kind of fear of a war with Russia even 90% of action films up until probably the 90s Russians are the bad guys and Hollywood played on the fear of nuclear Armageddon with Russia(which was close on a couple of occasions).
Most people, me included expected Kyiv to fall within a week, a puppet government put in place through totally legit elections with 99.9% of votes in favour of the new candidate.
I expected some sabotage groups and some guerilla warfare but ultimately Ukraine to fall under Russian rule.
What most people didn't take into account is how corrupt Russia has become under Putin with everyone taking a cut of the money or resources at every level of the supply chain to the point what was left is dregs and scrap, in fact probably the only person of influence within Russia who wasn't actually taking a cut along the supply chain was Putin as he has bigger pies to stick his grubby little fingers in.
I also think that if Russia had succeeded in Ukraine then China would of taken heart and invaded Taiwan, it was no coincidence that China was gathering in force towards Taiwan and Russia was gathering on the Ukrainian border and Russia waited until the Winter Olympics had finished in China for the invasion of Ukraine to begin, I think some kind of unofficial agreement was made between Russia and China.
I think that Russian incompetence, corruption and brutality alongside NATO backing, EU sanctions and Ukrainian determination halted a series of other conflicts happening around the world.
In regards to Putin must of known the state of the Russian military and attitudes in Ukraine towards Russia I wouldn't want to be the one to admit I sold the engines parts from 400 tank or cut corners and used cheap materials on body armour or used the money to maintain the black sea fleet to buy A personal armada of pleasure boats. I remember early on in the invasion on a Putin speech and somebody said something he didn't like and he verbally ripped him to bits infront of everyone and people who upset him tend to have nasty accidents or long prison sentences.
In February 2022 the world thought that Russia was a military superpower just behind the USA, for generations the Western population had lived in some kind of fear of a war with Russia even 90% of action films up until probably the 90s Russians are the bad guys and Hollywood played on the fear of nuclear Armageddon with Russia(which was close on a couple of occasions).
Most people, me included expected Kyiv to fall within a week, a puppet government put in place through totally legit elections with 99.9% of votes in favour of the new candidate.
I expected some sabotage groups and some guerilla warfare but ultimately Ukraine to fall under Russian rule.
What most people didn't take into account is how corrupt Russia has become under Putin with everyone taking a cut of the money or resources at every level of the supply chain to the point what was left is dregs and scrap, in fact probably the only person of influence within Russia who wasn't actually taking a cut along the supply chain was Putin as he has bigger pies to stick his grubby little fingers in.
I also think that if Russia had succeeded in Ukraine then China would of taken heart and invaded Taiwan, it was no coincidence that China was gathering in force towards Taiwan and Russia was gathering on the Ukrainian border and Russia waited until the Winter Olympics had finished in China for the invasion of Ukraine to begin, I think some kind of unofficial agreement was made between Russia and China.
I think that Russian incompetence, corruption and brutality alongside NATO backing, EU sanctions and Ukrainian determination halted a series of other conflicts happening around the world.
In regards to Putin must of known the state of the Russian military and attitudes in Ukraine towards Russia I wouldn't want to be the one to admit I sold the engines parts from 400 tank or cut corners and used cheap materials on body armour or used the money to maintain the black sea fleet to buy A personal armada of pleasure boats. I remember early on in the invasion on a Putin speech and somebody said something he didn't like and he verbally ripped him to bits infront of everyone and people who upset him tend to have nasty accidents or long prison sentences.
If I recall correctly, the person he humiliated was Naryshkin. Because Naryshkin had regular dealings and communications with the West's intelligence agencies, and probably knew the true picture of how any SMO would go, he was not in favour of the SMO (I may have got this wrong, but I think it's the case). Now he is, along with Strelkov, one of the factions vying for control.
Druss_The_Legend
Well-known member
Putin doesn not sit in close proximity to a bunch of bloggers. And some of the stuff that "Putin" came out with in that meeting was just utter codswhallop.
No. I don't accept any kind of bigotry.
It's no different from saying Christian Missionaries are terrorists and capable of using Nuclear Bombs.
Islamophobia, which you are guilty of, is racism. Stop it.
Rightly or wrongly, only one country has 'form' for using nuclear weapons.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Definitely not something that an islamaphobe would say
BoroMart
Well-known member
Wrongly. Was used against a civilian population justification was “to save our soldiers and end the war”. That would be no different from Russia dropping one to save soldiers and end the war in ukraine.
I don’t see Russia doing that of course, because the consequences would be horrendous for them
Russia can end the war by getting out of Ukraine, the country they invaded. The US didn't have that option in WW2
Muttley
Well-known member
I might not be here if the US hadn't dropped the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. My father was eighteen and had been called up to the Royal Engineers, he was in training when the war in Europe ended and he was told that his unit would be going out to the Far East. Looking at the casualties that the Americans took when invading Okinawa (12,500 dead 50,000 casualties) and in the fighting on Iwo Jima (6,000 dead 12,000 casualties) the expected casualties for an assault on the Japanese mainland was estimated at around half a million dead with several times that number of casualties and that is just the Allied losses. Losses in the Japanese military and in the civilian population would likely be a degree of magnitude higher again. He always reckoned the A-bombs saved his life.
And of course we were in total war at the time. The war against the Japanese was brutal in the extreme. I don't know whether we can justify the use of atomic weapons by the US but it did serve to show what these weapons do before they were in the hands of more than one power and we could have had a "nuclear exchange" (as we must politely call it)
So yeah, I think it is quite different in may ways to any tactical or strategic use of nukes by Russia in this conflict.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Correct but they did have the option of not putting troops in danger. They had strategic objectives and chose to kill innocent civilians including tens of thousands of children. It wasn’t a heroic act, indiscriminate killing never is. Which is why russias behaviour has been so appalling
Druss_The_Legend
Well-known member
Belarus starts receiving tactical nuclear weapons from Russia, President Alexander Lukashenko says
The development, watched closely by the United States and its allies, comes after Alexander Lukashenko appeared to contradict Vladimir Putin over the potential use of the weapons.
news.sky.com
I have a gut feeling this will escalate things somehow, I don't know how but I can see consequences of this power play by Russia and Belarus.
BoroMart
Well-known member
Of course every situation is different. The above numbers assumed that the us had to invade, conquer and subjugate Japan. They didn’t need to do that.
Regardless, soldiers dying is tragic on all sides, but that’s what they sign up for, they know the risks. civilians being targeted and slaughtered in theres 10s or 100s of thousands is a war crime, regardless if someone labels it “all out war” or not. Bombs should never be targeted at civilians. Wars are started by the powerful elites, often for personal gain, be it financial, power or ego. Civilians shouldn’t ever be the ones to carry the burden of that. Be it in Japan or ukraine
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Of course conscripted soldiers do not choose to be part of military risk.