Ever since this horrible thing started, I have had this dreadful feeling that it will escalate into who knows what.
It is being used as some kind of sick game, especially by US republicans.I know it goes against convention and any sense of justice but the world needs to give the evil bast.ard Putin a way out.
The same has to be said for Gaza. We cannot allow innocents to be slaughtered, day after day after day.
It has to be stopped. Now.
What about the english term 'collateral damage'? We are just as bad. War is war. The military is blood thirsty and is trained to be exactly that, no matter what flag is behind them.Just to give you an idea of the mindset of those in power in Russia, they use the term "consumables" to describe mobilised soldiers.
What about the english term 'collateral damage'? We are just as bad. War is war. The military is blood thirsty and is trained to be exactly that, no matter what flag is behind them.
Again, this is being drawn as 'good vs evil' with Russia on one side and half the righteous world on the other.
The Russians are victims in this, too. How many reports has your mate made that prove how scared and unprepared their conscripts are? What about the fact that Putin had to lock the fuc.king borders to prevent people from fleeing conscription? This thread also has many examples where Russian soldiers being blown to smithereens - applauded and enjoyed. APCs blown up, full of spotty young kids frightened half to death. The same Russian conscripts that are faced with their own soldiers executing them if they retreat.
Throwing weaponry at Ukraine - that will need to pay for- and encouraging them to defend themselves into oblivion, in itself is an evil act. It stinks of Afghanistan in the 80s. It is a proxy war. 'Yeh, you fight the good fight and sacrifice your children. We will keep sending you the guns to keep this conflict going until the last of you is dead. and by the way, we want paying for all of this sh.it as well as a guarantee that you will use our companies to rebuild your country'.
Putin got where he was buy buying a lot of western politicians. Those politicians are the same ones selling weapons to the other side. Money, money, money.
Putin refuses to withdraw. Eventually, both sides will run out of soldiers. Then what? What will have been achieved by the Ukraine sacrificing its population to maintain the war?
If it is another 2 or 3 years and another couple of million dead? Then they decide to talk and find a way out. Millions dead but they were 'right'.
Yet again, people hawkishly assume there are only two ways out - total destruction of the enemy or a humiliating defeat.Great, let’s just leave Ukraine to Putin, he’ll be happy then won’t he? They might as well be Russian anyway. He’ll certainly not push into weaker targets like Moldova, Georgia and maybe even Kazakhstan. They might as well be Russians too as they were part of the empire. He’ll stop there though. Definitely not interested in the Baltics or Poland. There’ll be no more war.
Putin has consistently told us what he wants and we didn’t listen. We didn’t listen to his Munich speech. We didn’t listen to Estonia after the cyber attacks. We didn’t listen to Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine all them years ago. Appeasement will lead to more oppression, death and destruction, eventually someone has to say stop and unfortunately it’s the Ukrainians bearing the brunt. But you tell them to stop and see if they agree
But in order to have a ceasefire negotiation, both sides have to agree to ceasefire and negotiate, surely? At the moment, it is proving impossible to get to that point for the assorted diplomatic moves behind the scenes. Similarly with Israel and a Hamas. Apparently they were close, but the second ceasefire just failed to be agreed before Ramadan which apparently put it out of reach. Noone can impose a ceasefire from outside in either is these 2 conflicts, and there is massive worldwide interest in doing so. That's just shows how difficult it is to stop a war one it starts and re-emphasises how important it is to try and prevent them starting.Yet again, people hawkishly assume there are only two ways out - total destruction of the enemy or a humiliating defeat.
What about a ceasefire negotiated by the world?
And the Palestinians? We are happily tooling up Israel - democratically elected- to commit genocide - 30k civilians killed, and counting. The atrocities witnessed in Ukraine are the same witnessed in Gaza. Civilians that cannot defend themselves whatsoever because they are oppressed by the same country attacking them.
Why is that different to Putin? We see fit to encourage Ukraine to fight back but arm Israel to wipe out undefended Palestinians.
Great, let's carry on with the double standards, making money from war and then, occasionally, invade the odd country when the rest of the planet says we shouldn't (and also a large part of our own population). It's ok, though, we still get rich from the arms trades and its just the Ukrainians, Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghanis, Syrians, Yemenis and Russians who are killed
Keep punishing ordinary Russians for Putin's sins. Of course, we have to keep buying his gas. That would just be daft to stop. I mean, its right for Ukraine to sacrifices their kids but we cant be expected not use Russian gas. It might get fu.cking cold.
Yet again, people hawkishly assume there are only two ways out - total destruction of the enemy or a humiliating defeat.
What about a ceasefire negotiated by the world?
And the Palestinians? We are happily tooling up Israel - democratically elected- to commit genocide - 30k civilians killed, and counting. The atrocities witnessed in Ukraine are the same witnessed in Gaza. Civilians that cannot defend themselves whatsoever because they are oppressed by the same country attacking them.
Why is that different to Putin? We see fit to encourage Ukraine to fight back but arm Israel to wipe out undefended Palestinians.
Great, let's carry on with the double standards, making money from war and then, occasionally, invade the odd country when the rest of the planet says we shouldn't (and also a large part of our own population). It's ok, though, we still get rich from the arms trades and its just the Ukrainians, Palestinians, Iraqis, Afghanis, Syrians, Yemenis and Russians who are killed
Keep punishing ordinary Russians for Putin's sins. Of course, we have to keep buying his gas. That would just be daft to stop. I mean, its right for Ukraine to sacrifices their kids but we cant be expected not use Russian gas. It might get fu.cking cold.
Russia has a very easy way out of this. Ukraine doesn't. Russia wants to conquer Ukraine and is prepared to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of its young men to achieve that. How do you negotiate with that? It would be lovely if someone would put a bullet through Vlad's head and everyone could just go home. But like all dictators he is an elusive target and even that might not guarantee that his replacement would call a halt.Yet again, people hawkishly assume there are only two ways out - total destruction of the enemy or a humiliating defeat.
What about a ceasefire negotiated by the world?
Lets face it: if the yanks decided that this is a time to look for peace then it would happen. No ifs or buts. If Zelensky understood that arms are not going to be provided forever then at least he would have to consider negotiating.I don’t see ‘the world’ lining up to agree a ceasefire. The UN is hardly united on Russia. It’s not hawkish to want to see a dictator removed, a dictator that has broken a long list of treaties signed by Russia agreeing to Ukraine’s territorial integrity. To think he wouldn’t break another one is to fundamentally misunderstand Putin and his stated aims for Russia.
What do you mean by negotiate?If Zelensky understood that arms are not going to be provided forever then at least he would have to consider negotiating.
I have no idea how you managed to come that conclusion.What do you mean by negotiate?
You seem to be implying we should just leave Ukraine to whatever fate Putin has in store.
and that is the reality of it. Yes activity will create collateral damage. However inactivity also creates lots of collateral damage too. It was the same with Iraq, everyone is quick in hindsight to dig out Blair and Bush for collateral damage but years of inactivity created lots of misery, death, corruption, oppression and would have continued to do so had no action ever been taken. It's the same with Russia today,By leaving innocent Russians under that system we are condemning them to brutality, talk about victims and collateral damage eh?
Is that a quote from Lee Anderson, by any chance?Hitler was appeased for several years prior to WW2, the same has happened with Putin and unsurprisingly he is emboldened to push further, today Ukraine, tomorrow The Baltics, Kazakhstan, Georgia and so on (Hitler - Austria, Czech Rep, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, France, Poland). Parallels are there. Putin needs to be put in a box as Hitler was. I’m anti-war and find it sad it’s happening all over again due to one man’s ‘vision’. The war neds to be over soonest and stop, but there’s no point in it stopping with Putin and his gangsters being appeased and still in charge……he’ll just do it all again down the line if so.
Lets face it: if the yanks decided that this is a time to look for peace then it would happen. No ifs or buts. If Zelensky understood that arms are not going to be provided forever then at least he would have to consider negotiating.
Even if Putin was daft enough to try this atrocity again with another ex-soviet country, from what we have learned from this thread, he would have enlist himself to the frontline because they wont be anybody left and nothing to fight with. Would he risk his so-called national pride in a defeat against a much smaller country after depleting all his military resources in Ukraine?
Would he really get the support to try it again? As evil as he is, he is very intelligent, if he was opposed and put under serious pressure by Wagner in Ukraine, would he seriously risk it all again?
Would it not be more likely to provoke a change in power during peacetime in Russia rather than when they are under a war footing and martial control? How would things change when conscripts return from the frontline and these things become common knowledge?
And of course, we cannot use what 'might' happen to perpetuate this or any war.
I hate these double standards with the gas. If europe was serious about helping Ukraine they could immediately stop buying gas. Once the oligarchs start losing billions then Putins - or whoever is in power- grip with the money will go with it.
TryIs that a quote from Lee Anderson, by any chance?
Jesus. I wouldn't know where to start with any of that.
I have no idea how you managed to come that conclusion.
I have not once suggested that Ukraine should fu.cking surrender. Ever.
I would bet my life that this is fact: most people on both sides want this to stop. 99.99% of them.
Why not just try to stop? We need a way out that does not depend on one side 'winning'