The end?

It’s a good question I think and one the belligerent states in Iraq should have an answer for.

Firstly I believe the war in Ukraine is the death throes of aggressive, nation collecting European imperialism, in this case by Russia, which under various guises has taken countries, land and people under its direct control, or into its sphere of influence. Yes, there are remnants of various European empires, but the overt war mongering, sabre rattling and perceived superiority began to die out for most European countries in the wake of WW2 through the 20th century - Russia, however, lost much of its empire in 1991 but still retained a belief of Russian superiority and domination towards its lesser neighbours, they should be grateful for Russian culture and language and accept Russian hegemony.

With Iraq I think a lot depends on your beliefs already - do you believe in American imperialism? Was there any evidence of WMD’s, or was it a complete fabrication? If so, who by and why? Was it just a grab for oil? Unless someone believes outright Kremlin lies, then Zelensky is no Saddam and Ukraine is not nazi infested. But neither was Iraq, the Bin Laden and Al Queda links were very shaky even if there’s little doubt Saddam and co were nasty pieces of work. There were other murderous regimes at that time that weren’t removed - so oil then? Maybe, it wouldn’t surprise me, but I don’t believe everyone was motivated by that, some clearly believed Iraq posed a wider danger that now we know wasn’t true. So, to conclude on Iraq, I feel it’s very murky getting to the truth, but it could very well have been an illegal war for immoral reasons that several figures should answer for, but unlike Ukraine I can’t be totally sure.

I’m not wedded to what I’ve written above on Iraq as I’m far from an expert, so happy for anyone to question it or provide more information. Even if Iraq was totally wrong, we are still right today to call out Putin’s imperialist and nationalistic actions, but we would have to accept being accused of hypocrisy too.
Great response. I'm reasonably satisfied myself that there were no WMDs and that there was never sufficient justification for the invasion of Iraq, it was just cobbled up as an excuse.

I do fully accept that the two (Ukraine & Iraq) wars are different but still think that millions, especially in the middle east, will be of the opinion that US/UK imperialists are at it again, supported this time by their EU allies.
 
It’s a good question I think and one the belligerent states in Iraq should have an answer for.

Firstly I believe the war in Ukraine is the death throes of aggressive, nation collecting European imperialism, in this case by Russia, which under various guises has taken countries, land and people under its direct control, or into its sphere of influence. Yes, there are remnants of various European empires, but the overt war mongering, sabre rattling and perceived superiority began to die out for most European countries in the wake of WW2 through the 20th century - Russia, however, lost much of its empire in 1991 but still retained a belief of Russian superiority and domination towards its lesser neighbours, they should be grateful for Russian culture and language and accept Russian hegemony.

With Iraq I think a lot depends on your beliefs already - do you believe in American imperialism? Was there any evidence of WMD’s, or was it a complete fabrication? If so, who by and why? Was it just a grab for oil? Unless someone believes outright Kremlin lies, then Zelensky is no Saddam and Ukraine is not nazi infested. But neither was Iraq, the Bin Laden and Al Queda links were very shaky even if there’s little doubt Saddam and co were nasty pieces of work. There were other murderous regimes at that time that weren’t removed - so oil then? Maybe, it wouldn’t surprise me, but I don’t believe everyone was motivated by that, some clearly believed Iraq posed a wider danger that now we know wasn’t true. So, to conclude on Iraq, I feel it’s very murky getting to the truth, but it could very well have been an illegal war for immoral reasons that several figures should answer for, but unlike Ukraine I can’t be totally sure.

I’m not wedded to what I’ve written above on Iraq as I’m far from an expert, so happy for anyone to question it or provide more information. Even if Iraq was totally wrong, we are still right today to call out Putin’s imperialist and nationalistic actions, but we would have to accept being accused of hypocrisy too.
" It's very murky getting to the truth."

The first casualty of war has always been and always will be " Truth"
 
Great response. I'm reasonably satisfied myself that there were no WMDs and that there was never sufficient justification for the invasion of Iraq, it was just cobbled up as an excuse.

I do fully accept that the two (Ukraine & Iraq) wars are different but still think that millions, especially in the middle east, will be of the opinion that US/UK imperialists are at it again, supported this time by their EU allies.
I think the problem is that behind the unacceptable Russian invasion of the Ukraine is that all the big world players are a little bit to blame somewhere in the way they have been operating. It’s an accumulation of issues which have sparked the problem.

As always the innocent civilians who just want peaceful lives are suffering very very badly at the hands of the politicians.
 
BTW is Putin's invasion of Ukraine any more or less wrong then the UK and US invading Iraq for oil using an out and out lie as an excuse?

I'm not suggesting that's an excuse but to the rest of the world I can understand how they might think we're hypocritical c0cks.

Yes, it's a lot more "wrong", this doesn't make the Iraq second war right mind, but the first was, undoubtedly.

The main reason the USA used for GW2 was poor, but they did still have some good reasons and dragged some others along for the ride. Russia's reasons are a complete load of crap, nobody has attacked Russia.

On a scale of wrong to less wrong, to right, it possibly goes something like this:
Iraq using chemical weapons pre-1991 (for decades, a lot of it under Saddam)
Iraq invading Kuwait 1991/ Russia invading Ukraine in 2022
Russia invading Crimea in 2014, only slightly lower as Russia had some dubious debatable claims to this
Iraq testing chemical weapon delivery methods and trying to source ingredients 1998-2003
Iraq not letting in UN chemical weapons inspectors 1998-2003
Iraq hindering UN chemical weapons inspectors 1991-1998
.
.
Iraq destroying chemical weapons it claims it never had, what others did it not have? The UN still thought they had some.
USA trying to take out Saddam in 2003, to give back to more sensible leadership (not to take over and own it)
.
.
Russia flying jets and bombers to test NATO defences, pretty much every week for the last few decades
.
USA attacking Iraq in 1990/91
.
.
USA defending Kuwait in 1990/91
Anyone helping Ukraine defend itself in 2022
NATO positioning anything defensive on NATO soil (this isn't an excuse for Russia to attack)
Ukraine doing whatever it wanted to defend itself (if they wanted to join NATO then that's their choice)
 
Here's today's rambling

"
The fog of war is an apt expression.
Turned out that the missile was indeed Ukrainian.
In Poland they are secretly saying Kurva at the missed chance of doing something constructive with lot's of Russians.
I suspect the victims will get state funerals as hero's in the war on Russia, and that they will spin it so hard that Russia somehow ends up shafted anyway.
But for now, let us get back to other foggy shores.

Russia
Ukraine missiled an Oil depot deep inside Russia, and continued to shell targets in Belgorod. It is becoming more and more clear that Ukraine is seeing that going North is a clear future alternative if Russia does not go home.
The targeting goes beyond limiting the supply chain, and instead includes defence installations and troop concentrations.

In general Ukraine is starting to have problems finding enough depots, logistic hubs, command posts, and equipment to hit. Instead they are increasingly hitting troop concentrations. This will over time lead to distribution of Russian troops, making breakthroughs even easier.

Svatove/Kreminna
Ukraine is increasing the pressure on the remaining Russian units in Svatove now that they have either direct control, or fire-control of the P66 Highway.
At Svatove they are pouring precission artillery on top of the hapless Mobiks. A final push is now expected at any time there.
After that it will probably be Kreminna's turn.

It is now becoming clear that Ukraine is not arsed with any Winter stoppage in the war, they are going full steam, and will continue to do so throughout winter. After all, they have better winter gear and logistics, so Winter is very much to their advantage.

I would also here point out that most of my training was in winter warfare, and winter is no reason to halt any wars.
The entire premise is just ridiculous.
Warm gear, warm coffee, warm feet, warm food, and you are good to go squashing freezing hungry Russkies.
The Swedish temperature limit is minus 52 Celsius, that is when we give up on going on an offensive or exercise.
I have a huge problem seeing the Ukrainians viewing things differently.

Kherson II
Out of the Fog over Dnipro Bug the latter day Vikings rode unto the beach, and Surovikin wrote home "Beware of the Wrath of the Kievans".
The Russians have now recognized openly that they have lost the Kinburn Spit.
Russia tried to mount a counter-offensive, but they rapidly discovered that it is hard to do that when you have to do it on a road that is in open view of the Ukrainian artillery, and that it is Ukraine that has the fire control of the road.
Meanwhile Ukraine is bringing in more and more equipment and prepairing a storming of their own.
Having an enemy presence at your back is not a nice thing indeed.

Especially if you have them doing miracles in galumphing across the Dnipro as if it did not exist.
Surovikin made a Trump-sized mistake. He forgot that the Northwestern bank is high ground.
So, effectively Ukrainian artillery are shooting downwards into well visible Russian defences.
No wonder the Ukrainians could restore the bridges and use boats to galumph across the river at such a rapid pace.
Now they have two solid beach-heads at Antonivka and Nova Kakhovka and are rapidly spreading out and pushing ahead.

This is a complete disaster for Russia. From whichever way you look at it they are outflanked and their entire manouvre depth towards Crimea is at immediate peril.
The area is a on top of that a desert, perfect for tank-warfare.
And it is not Russia that has the upper hand in that kind of warfare. Donating 500 plus tanks to Ukraine was somewhat of a tactical mistake.
Currently Russia have 440ish tanks and Ukraine closer to 1200... And the best Russian gear is over in Luhansk.
When Ukraine has enough gear across this will go very fast, rapid tactical warfare are after all something they excell at.

Surovikin is obviously aware of this, and the signs are that he is not **** bothered with even trying, just some delaying tactics.
This is why he is sending the troops down to the Crimean border and the defence lines over there.

The next few weeks
I am fully aware that Ukraine will probably do something completely different and amazeballz instead of what I will write down below, it is what I think is most likely to follow.

Ukraine will continue to advance in Luhansk at a slow but steady pace to cut the supply roads there.
Defend in Bakhmut, why change a killer of a concept?

In Vuhledar Ukraine will continue to push hard, it ties down large amounts of Russians since Ukraine is threatening advances in 3 directions from that spot.

Over at Zhaporizhzhia Ukraine will most likely do nothing right now.
Everyone expected Ukraine to move troops from Kherson to reinforce here and push hard.
Surovikin did that for one. Previously I also thought that they would, but Ukraine proved me wrong here.
I would not bother when I have a perfect opportunity to hammer it straight down Kherson for a knockout blow on Crimea, the pride and joy of Russia, a place they want to keep so much that they are farting watermelons over it.

Instead, Kherson II it is.
Ukraine will put speakers on their tanks and blast suitable music as they race across the desert downwards to Crimea, while simultaneously spreding out toward the Kinburn and forming a new frontline in the direction of Melitopol flanking Zhaporizhzhia.

It is at the Voloshyne-Armiansk-Perekop line that things will get interesting.
Either Ukraine spend a month blowing it to smithereens while eating Borstj, or they do some of their usual magic.
Let me put on my Whizard Hat and have at it.
Ukraine will go there, set up the usual Borstj-artillery shop, but the main bulk will go East towards Vasylivka.
When there they will do an amphibious assault across the salt lake and that will be that.

At this point Russians will be utterly despondent and used to losing everything, everywhere, all the time, and go home.

Russian Rabbit out of the **** Syndrome
I never seize to be amazed at all the people believing that Russia somehow will pull a rabbit out of its **** that will save the day and give Russia some sort of mystical victory.

The amount of Western pundits reverting to this narrative must be caused by lacking math classes.
For Russia to pull a military Rabbit out of it's **** it must first pull an industrial rectal rabbit.
Russia does not have the industrial capacity to produce the armament needed to save itself.

Until this is solved there will be no military ****-rabbit.
And rebuilding the squandered industry will take two years, and there are no signs that they have even started solving this problem.

And even if Russia did solve this problem they are up against The Collective Western Military Industrial Complex in all its "Glory" and Might. 85 percent of all weapons on Earth is produced by The Collective West, and we can easily increase production over time into the purely ludicrous.

I find these pundits to reside permanently in an equational great Fog."
 
Here's today's rambling

"
The fog of war is an apt expression.
Turned out that the missile was indeed Ukrainian.
In Poland they are secretly saying Kurva at the missed chance of doing something constructive with lot's of Russians.
I suspect the victims will get state funerals as hero's in the war on Russia, and that they will spin it so hard that Russia somehow ends up shafted anyway.
But for now, let us get back to other foggy shores.

Russia
Ukraine missiled an Oil depot deep inside Russia, and continued to shell targets in Belgorod. It is becoming more and more clear that Ukraine is seeing that going North is a clear future alternative if Russia does not go home.
The targeting goes beyond limiting the supply chain, and instead includes defence installations and troop concentrations.

In general Ukraine is starting to have problems finding enough depots, logistic hubs, command posts, and equipment to hit. Instead they are increasingly hitting troop concentrations. This will over time lead to distribution of Russian troops, making breakthroughs even easier.

Svatove/Kreminna
Ukraine is increasing the pressure on the remaining Russian units in Svatove now that they have either direct control, or fire-control of the P66 Highway.
At Svatove they are pouring precission artillery on top of the hapless Mobiks. A final push is now expected at any time there.
After that it will probably be Kreminna's turn.

It is now becoming clear that Ukraine is not arsed with any Winter stoppage in the war, they are going full steam, and will continue to do so throughout winter. After all, they have better winter gear and logistics, so Winter is very much to their advantage.

I would also here point out that most of my training was in winter warfare, and winter is no reason to halt any wars.
The entire premise is just ridiculous.
Warm gear, warm coffee, warm feet, warm food, and you are good to go squashing freezing hungry Russkies.
The Swedish temperature limit is minus 52 Celsius, that is when we give up on going on an offensive or exercise.
I have a huge problem seeing the Ukrainians viewing things differently.

Kherson II
Out of the Fog over Dnipro Bug the latter day Vikings rode unto the beach, and Surovikin wrote home "Beware of the Wrath of the Kievans".
The Russians have now recognized openly that they have lost the Kinburn Spit.
Russia tried to mount a counter-offensive, but they rapidly discovered that it is hard to do that when you have to do it on a road that is in open view of the Ukrainian artillery, and that it is Ukraine that has the fire control of the road.
Meanwhile Ukraine is bringing in more and more equipment and prepairing a storming of their own.
Having an enemy presence at your back is not a nice thing indeed.

Especially if you have them doing miracles in galumphing across the Dnipro as if it did not exist.
Surovikin made a Trump-sized mistake. He forgot that the Northwestern bank is high ground.
So, effectively Ukrainian artillery are shooting downwards into well visible Russian defences.
No wonder the Ukrainians could restore the bridges and use boats to galumph across the river at such a rapid pace.
Now they have two solid beach-heads at Antonivka and Nova Kakhovka and are rapidly spreading out and pushing ahead.

This is a complete disaster for Russia. From whichever way you look at it they are outflanked and their entire manouvre depth towards Crimea is at immediate peril.
The area is a on top of that a desert, perfect for tank-warfare.
And it is not Russia that has the upper hand in that kind of warfare. Donating 500 plus tanks to Ukraine was somewhat of a tactical mistake.
Currently Russia have 440ish tanks and Ukraine closer to 1200... And the best Russian gear is over in Luhansk.
When Ukraine has enough gear across this will go very fast, rapid tactical warfare are after all something they excell at.

Surovikin is obviously aware of this, and the signs are that he is not **** bothered with even trying, just some delaying tactics.
This is why he is sending the troops down to the Crimean border and the defence lines over there.

The next few weeks
I am fully aware that Ukraine will probably do something completely different and amazeballz instead of what I will write down below, it is what I think is most likely to follow.

Ukraine will continue to advance in Luhansk at a slow but steady pace to cut the supply roads there.
Defend in Bakhmut, why change a killer of a concept?

In Vuhledar Ukraine will continue to push hard, it ties down large amounts of Russians since Ukraine is threatening advances in 3 directions from that spot.

Over at Zhaporizhzhia Ukraine will most likely do nothing right now.
Everyone expected Ukraine to move troops from Kherson to reinforce here and push hard.
Surovikin did that for one. Previously I also thought that they would, but Ukraine proved me wrong here.
I would not bother when I have a perfect opportunity to hammer it straight down Kherson for a knockout blow on Crimea, the pride and joy of Russia, a place they want to keep so much that they are farting watermelons over it.

Instead, Kherson II it is.
Ukraine will put speakers on their tanks and blast suitable music as they race across the desert downwards to Crimea, while simultaneously spreding out toward the Kinburn and forming a new frontline in the direction of Melitopol flanking Zhaporizhzhia.

It is at the Voloshyne-Armiansk-Perekop line that things will get interesting.
Either Ukraine spend a month blowing it to smithereens while eating Borstj, or they do some of their usual magic.
Let me put on my Whizard Hat and have at it.
Ukraine will go there, set up the usual Borstj-artillery shop, but the main bulk will go East towards Vasylivka.
When there they will do an amphibious assault across the salt lake and that will be that.

At this point Russians will be utterly despondent and used to losing everything, everywhere, all the time, and go home.

Russian Rabbit out of the **** Syndrome
I never seize to be amazed at all the people believing that Russia somehow will pull a rabbit out of its **** that will save the day and give Russia some sort of mystical victory.

The amount of Western pundits reverting to this narrative must be caused by lacking math classes.
For Russia to pull a military Rabbit out of it's **** it must first pull an industrial rectal rabbit.
Russia does not have the industrial capacity to produce the armament needed to save itself.

Until this is solved there will be no military ****-rabbit.
And rebuilding the squandered industry will take two years, and there are no signs that they have even started solving this problem.

And even if Russia did solve this problem they are up against The Collective Western Military Industrial Complex in all its "Glory" and Might. 85 percent of all weapons on Earth is produced by The Collective West, and we can easily increase production over time into the purely ludicrous.

I find these pundits to reside permanently in an equational great Fog."
All good if correct - only hope the invaders can be kicked out of every inch of Ukraine as hard and as quickly as possible without delay
 
Surely there are problems with the Rasputitska mud, even for modern tanks? It will impede the sort of rapid attacks Ukraine have been mounting to some degree at least, slightly favouring the defending side, I'd have thought.

Also, even with modern winter clothing, I'm sure I read that the Ukraine forces that have been fighting Russia for years only allow soldiers to spend 90 minutes to 2 hours in the open, on guard etc. before rotating. That must have some impact on soldiers advancing on a defensive line, where you'd assume it is easier to keep warm.

I guess it is about the firepower advantage for Ukraine and the morale of the Russians. We know from WW1 and WW2 that it was the artillery bombardments that were the most effective and the most frightening thing troops faced, the thing that broke them more than anything. It really doesn't seem like the average Russian has the stomach to dig in like Bastogne, let alone the weapons. Who can blame them? They also have seen such a rapid reversal and have been constantly pushed back they can't have had chance to prepare good defensive positions.
 
Surely there are problems with the Rasputitska mud, even for modern tanks? It will impede the sort of rapid attacks Ukraine have been mounting to some degree at least, slightly favouring the defending side, I'd have thought.

Also, even with modern winter clothing, I'm sure I read that the Ukraine forces that have been fighting Russia for years only allow soldiers to spend 90 minutes to 2 hours in the open, on guard etc. before rotating. That must have some impact on soldiers advancing on a defensive line, where you'd assume it is easier to keep warm.

I guess it is about the firepower advantage for Ukraine and the morale of the Russians. We know from WW1 and WW2 that it was the artillery bombardments that were the most effective and the most frightening thing troops faced, the thing that broke them more than anything. It really doesn't seem like the average Russian has the stomach to dig in like Bastogne, let alone the weapons. Who can blame them? They also have seen such a rapid reversal and have been constantly pushed back they can't have had chance to prepare good defensive positions.

Yeah, he posted about Rasputitska recently. By winter proper, the ground freezes though, so heavy machinery can move rapidly again.

A well supplied defensive line is one thing. I suspect many of the Russians on the defensive lines will have inadequate clothing for full winter engagement.

You are certainly right about the firepower advantage. Also the momentum. The Ukrainians won't want to pause much I don't think...they want this over. The Russians will pull back into Crimea and behind 2013 borders as quickly as they can I think, if Surovikin is to be taken at face value.
 
Yeah, he posted about Rasputitska recently. By winter proper, the ground freezes though, so heavy machinery can move rapidly again.

A well supplied defensive line is one thing. I suspect many of the Russians on the defensive lines will have inadequate clothing for full winter engagement.

You are certainly right about the firepower advantage. Also the momentum. The Ukrainians won't want to pause much I don't think...they want this over. The Russians will pull back into Crimea and behind 2013 borders as quickly as they can I think, if Surovikin is to be taken at face value.

Russia will struggle to retreat in the mud too of course.

Part of the Russians problems is they keep losing large numbers of men, so the equation of how long a line they can defend keeps changing, as does the ordnance they can count on. Ukraine know this and will want to keep them on the run for as long as their own supplies don't exhaust.
 
Think it will
I think the problem is that behind the unacceptable Russian invasion of the Ukraine is that all the big world players are a little bit to blame somewhere in the way they have been operating. It’s an accumulation of issues which have sparked the problem.

As always the innocent civilians who just want peaceful lives are suffering very very badly at the hands of the politicians.

How is the west in any way responsible for Ukraine wanting closer ties with it ?

Ukraine chose democracy . It democratically wants closer ties to the west , specifically the eu at first . It is not the west’s fault Ukraine chose them over Russia . Russia have also abused Ukraine over time with the famine and Chernobyl

If Russia didn’t invade crimea then the polls from Ukrainians wouldn’t have favoured joining nato . Ukraine actually opposed joining nato before crimea

This is all because Putin and Russia are butthurt that their neighbours don’t like them and don’t wish to be in their sphere of influence . Russia doesn’t decide who it’s spheres of influence are, only those countries do
 
Think it will


How is the west in any way responsible for Ukraine wanting closer ties with it ?

Ukraine chose democracy . It democratically wants closer ties to the west , specifically the eu at first . It is not the west’s fault Ukraine chose them over Russia . Russia have also abused Ukraine over time with the famine and Chernobyl

If Russia didn’t invade crimea then the polls from Ukrainians wouldn’t have favoured joining nato . Ukraine actually opposed joining nato before crimea

This is all because Putin and Russia are butthurt that their neighbours don’t like them and don’t wish to be in their sphere of influence . Russia doesn’t decide who it’s spheres of influence are, only those countries do
Russia are in the wrong there can be no doubt about that, as is any aggressor.

But you have to live in the real world I’m afraid.

If you know your neighbour is a nutter then you are careful how you deal with him.
 
Russia are in the wrong there can be no doubt about that, as is any aggressor.

But you have to live in the real world I’m afraid.

If you know your neighbour is a nutter then you are careful how you deal with him.
bullshyt, Ukraine are an independent country and can do what the hell they like. They won't and shouldn't live their lives as their neighbour dictates. There is only one country to blame, Russia. It's like asking an abused housewife to stop annoying their husband and everything will be ok.
 
Putin had a plan that went far beyond Ukraine. He gambled on winning and winning quickly, and overwhelmingly. He believed Russia's own hype. He wanted Crimea. Land bridge to Crimea. Odessa. Ukraine. Sulwaki Gap. Finland and at least parts of Sweden/Norway. It was Soviet Russian boundaies with knobs on. The west knew this because they tapped his phone, amongst other things. Thanks to the resilliance of Ukraine... and some help... he failed at page 1.

I don't think Russia will forgive him in a hurry. But he'll be dead anyway.
 
bullshyt, Ukraine are an independent country and can do what the hell they like. They won't and shouldn't live their lives as their neighbour dictates. There is only one country to blame, Russia. It's like asking an abused housewife to stop annoying their husband and everything will be ok.
Mmmm, we will have to agree to disagree I don’t think the world of international diplomacy is so black and white or that neighbours share the same house.

Just out of interest do you think NATO should enter the war?
 
Mmmm, we will have to agree to disagree I don’t think the world of international diplomacy is so black and white or that neighbours share the same house.

Just out of interest do you think NATO should enter the war?
Diplomacy is not relevant, this is about democracy and and self-determination. Ukraine owe russia nothing, they certainly shouldn't be shaping their future based on political pressure from a neighbour.

No not really. But a line is required somewhere where it could be possible but we're not near that line right now.
 
Diplomacy is not relevant, this is about democracy and and self-determination. Ukraine owe russia nothing, they certainly shouldn't be shaping their future based on political pressure from a neighbour.

No not really. But a line is required somewhere where it could be possible but we're not near that line right now.

This is me, not my mate, but we are very close to that. Russia has just agreed to negotiate terms of surrender. Their army really is fecked.
 
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