The relationship between club and fans

[Primus84]

If you park your personal opinions of him as a person to one side (i don't particularly agree with some of them) do you think it's likely we'll find another benefactor that's willing to unconditionally gift us £21 million a year out of his own pocket just to stand still without any further guarantee of promotion?

What's so different about us compared to many Championship (and lower) clubs that have been bought out by new ownership?

Everyone always says no one else would want us - the fact that so many other clubs change hands and receive investment etc proves that to be false.

The argument as to whether any potential new owner would be better is valid but right now SG leaves much to be desired.

 

[Nano]

If you park your personal opinions of him as a person to one side (i don't particularly agree with some of them) do you think it's likely we'll find another benefactor that's willing to unconditionally gift us £21 million a year out of his own pocket just to stand still without any further guarantee of promotion?

Who knows? There are plenty of clubs doing better or worse than us with a chairman that isn't Steve Gibson.

There are a few questions that could answer whether someone else might be more suitable.
For a start, would someone else run us better so they don't need to pay £21m of their own money?
Are we being optimally run? The answer is clearly no so can we be better run?
Would a billionaire look at us and see £21m as a small investment to get us into the much more lucrative PL where Gibson is no longer willing to risk that like he once was?

I think using the word benefactor makes it a loaded question. We would certainly be an attractive proposition to an investor in the same way all those other less attractive clubs that have attracted investment have been. Finding another person willing to own the business and make them more successful rather than just be a charity is certainly a possibility.

 

[LessoftheLip]

willing to unconditionally gift us £21 million a year out of his own pocket

This has been done to death on here. It does not come out of his 'own pocket'. For it to do so first he would have to take a dividend payment after company corporation tax liabilities had been met. Then he would need to settle personal tax liabilities resulting from the dividend.
That is not a tax efficient way of doing business so it doesn't happen like that.

 

[On The Bob]

I'm not asking for in depth information - in fact if our strategy matches our position as one of the most expensive season tickets then that's fine.

But when you depart from the existing strategy to a new strategy - selling off millions of pounds of players and replacing them with bargain basement options - then the club needs to be more upfront if, at very least, it doesn't want the fans to be unhappy and complain. I'm not asking for information in extreme depth - when was the last time Gibson actually spoke to the fans properly rather than with the exclusive clique events that are put on?

How does that communication look though?

“Sorry lads and lasses, before you buy your tickets for next season, be warned: If we don’t go up, we’ll be recruiting development players of lesser quality that are much cheaper options”

Again, I just don’t see that happening. I understand it would be nice to know but that’s the risk we take.

I don't think there's many fans who demand the club communicates its transfer strategy before they decide if they are going to commit to purchase a season ticket but they are looking for some 'intent'.

On the point of intent. It’s very hard to indicate intentions in March when the window is closed. Words mean nothing.

Chris Wilder kept telling us how we had loads of superstars lined up (perhaps trying to put the club in an awkward position) and when they weren’t delivered, he started crying about the quality of the squad - a similar one that Carrick done very well with once he left.

The club or management could have all the best intentions in the world, it doesn’t guarantee that you’ll sign what you’re after.

I realise I might be risking sounding like a bit of RaRa here and defending the club. That’s not the case. I just think there’s a number of things to potentially criticise the club and Gibbo for, but the communication of transfer direction or policy just isn’t something you’re going to get in advance, whether that be changing or not.

We don’t really know the strategy in the summer either. It’ll all depend on the rebuild required and who leaves you would imagine. Hopefully we can keep the main core of the squad and add the much needed quality we need - certainly in midfield and attack.

That uncertainty might make people reconsider their renewal. I once renewed after the club recruited this bag of chite - take a look at some of those names that squad list

2009–10 Middlesbrough F.C. season - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

We’ve got a bit further to fall yet

 

[Humpty]

This has been done to death on here. It does not come out of his 'own pocket'. For it to do so first he would have to take a dividend payment after company corporation tax liabilities had been met. Then he would need to settle personal tax liabilities resulting from the dividend.
That is not a tax efficient way of doing business so it doesn't happen like that.

Goodness me. You can talk about the semantics and accounting practices all you like but ultimately it's money that belongs to him one way or another.

 

[LessoftheLip]

We don’t really know the strategy in the summer either.

The rest of my post referred to posters who are absolutely certain about what's going to happen in the summer. They don't.

 

[LessoftheLip]

Goodness me. You can talk about the semantics and accounting practices all you like but ultimately it's money that belongs to him one way or another.

It's hardly semantics. My season ticket money is available to me only after I've paid income tax and NICs through my salary. If you want to keep trotting out the notion that he pays £21m out of his 'own pocket' every season you crack on

 

[atypical_boro]

I'm just trying to get a sense of perspective regarding the idea that this is one of the worst times to be a Boro fan

I'm not talking about right this second, this exact moment in time. I'm saying that the last 15 years as a period is unquestionably one of the worst in the club's history. Had we been on the road to the play-offs or promotion just now people would have, understandably, been optimistic about the future and that we were coming out of it, but as it stands it feels like we're still basically on a road to nowhere in my opinion.

I think Carrick will see out his contract, then we'll chuck another ball at the coconut shy after that, and hope we strike gold. As I say, what happens in the last year of his contract is crucial, and he is still in the frame for being the guy who turns it all round. But it feels like its far from guaranteed, and much less likely than it felt 12 months ago.

 

[On The Bob]

The rest of my post referred to posters who are absolutely certain about what's going to happen in the summer. They don't.

Absolutely. My logical brain would hope (after hearing Scott’s interview the other week too) that we are keeping in our powder dry to have a good Summer window.

That’s just me reading between the lines though and all the best intentions in the world won’t guarantee we’ll get the players we want.

 

[Simply red]

Great OP, but I do think that the club have made it impossible for many to continuing to attend for financial reasons. It’s a double edged sword, the club needs to generate money, but in doing so it’s now priced out people from putting money into the club.

And piffed them off at the same time .

 

[morrissey]

Absolutely. My logical brain would hope (after hearing Scott’s interview the other week too) that we are keeping in our powder dry to have a good Summer window.

That’s just me reading between the lines though and all the best intentions in the world won’t guarantee we’ll get the players we want.

Club must have a steer on who'll be leaving.
McNair, McGree must be certs.
Hackney, Jones, VDB - we have to have all in place in case we lose players like them.
According to Scott, the Rogers thing was "totally unexpected". Well the CF's being crocked was known and we were willing to go with what we had (ie not much), then flog Crooks.
I am viewing this summer window with a lot of trepidation and little confidence.

 

[The Card Cheat]

I'm not talking about right this second, this exact moment in time. I'm saying that the last 15 years as a period is unquestionably one of the worst in the club's history. Had we been on the road to the play-offs or promotion just now people would have, understandably, been optimistic about the future and that we were coming out of it, but as it stands it feels like we're still basically on a road to nowhere in my opinion.

Is it really "unquestionably one of the worst periods in the clubs history" though?
We've had two good periods in the last 70 years, and a lot of averageness. The idea we're a footballing giant currently having a long nap, isn't really bourne out by history.

 

[atypical_boro]

Is it really "unquestionably one of the worst periods in the clubs history" though?
We've had two good periods in the last 70 years, and a lot of averageness. The idea we're a footballing giant currently having a long nap, isn't really bourne out by history.

In terms of time spent outside the top flight, yes. The only spell that can rival it is 1954-1974, which some on here may remember some of, but most of us don't.

The club is traditionally a yoyo club. But it has stopped yoyo-ing. There was a time when I was the first to call out people's 'entitlement' etc. It was never going to be cup wins and European runs all the time, and we were always going to drop out of the PL. But this last 15 years isn't far off being as bad it gets in terms of league performance (aside from 1986).

We once had 12 consecutive seasons in division 2. If we don't get promoted next season, that'll be 9. It isn't unreasonable for fans to expect us to qualify for the play offs in any given season, but certainly not this one. And this time last year it would have been laughable to suggest next (this) season would be over by February.

 

[The Card Cheat]

In terms of time spent outside the top flight, yes. The only spell that can rival it is 1954-1974, which some on here may remember some of, but most of us don't.

The club is traditionally a yoyo club. But it has stopped yoyo-ing. There was a time when I was the first to call out people's 'entitlement' etc. It was never going to be cup wins and European runs all the time, and we were always going to drop out of the PL. But this last 15 years isn't far off being as bad it gets in terms of league performance (aside from 1986).

We once had 12 consecutive seasons in division 2. If we don't get promoted next season, that'll be 9. It isn't unreasonable for fans to expect us to qualify for the play offs in any given season, but certainly not this one. And this time last year it would have been laughable to suggest next (this) season would be over by February.

Many people can remember 81-86 if they can't remember the 50s. Now that was grim!
I'm not satisfied how this season has panned out and no-one should be, I also think after an almost flawless first 20 years Gibson has made a lot of mistakes...but I genuinely believe that appointing Carrick was a good decision that has produced some of our best times as a club since 2006.

 

[atypical_boro]

but I genuinely believe that appointing Carrick was a good decision that has produced some of our best times as a club since 2006.

You're probably right on this, but its been a very low bar since 2006.

I would say it was a flawless 12 years (1994-2006, well apart from the 3 points fiasco). You could even say that until 2016 everything was going quite well too, we'd come down and eventually bounced back. So he had 22 years where I wouldn't really have questioned him on anything (apart from his absolutely mental statement about Stockton folk supporting Sunderland). 30 if you include his whole time on the board.

But since 2017, lets be honest, its been a massive, massive slog for us fans and it will get even harder. And I keep repeating this but next season is absolutely pivotal. It won't make any difference to whether or not I attend or anything, I'll always go as long as I am fit and financially able enough, but I am starting to lose faith that the good times will be seen again under Gibson. We just don't seem to have the resources and/or know-how anymore.

 

[Boro in Devon]

I have been thinking about the situation for a little while, this may be simplistic as I know f*** all about running a football club.

In my mind we should differentiate the club in two areas.
The stadium/ administration/ policing etc. The match day experience should be covered by the sale of tickets / food etc. Also money for other activities as part of the club boxes/ function all go into the running of the stadium. Also covering the womens team and any other uses. I dont see why Steve Gibson should be subsidising out attendance. So if we have to pay more, than so be it, equally if we have to shut some stands to limit costs.
This side of the business is then run under its own director and they should be responsible for communication with the fan base regarding the match experience.

The footballing side should be run as a separate entity. This is where we see the development of talent, transfer activity and wages set to maximise the teams success. This is funded by transfers/ sky money/ league money and if necessary by Steve Gibson. Obviously this is run by the Director of football alongside the manager/coach. As an additional way of funding the teams success, a contribution could be made from either season tickets or from someone like me, who lives too far away to attend. I could make a contribution to the team that I support on an annual basis.

This would also set up the possibility of selling off either of both parts of the club to new owners over time.

 

[Humpty]

I have been thinking about the situation for a little while, this may be simplistic as I know f*** all about running a football club.

In my mind we should differentiate the club in two areas.
The stadium/ administration/ policing etc. The match day experience should be covered by the sale of tickets / food etc. Also money for other activities as part of the club boxes/ function all go into the running of the stadium. Also covering the womens team and any other uses. I dont see why Steve Gibson should be subsidising out attendance. So if we have to pay more, than so be it, equally if we have to shut some stands to limit costs.
This side of the business is then run under its own director and they should be responsible for communication with the fan base regarding the match experience.

The footballing side should be run as a separate entity. This is where we see the development of talent, transfer activity and wages set to maximise the teams success. This is funded by transfers/ sky money/ league money and if necessary by Steve Gibson. Obviously this is run by the Director of football alongside the manager/coach. As an additional way of funding the teams success, a contribution could be made from either season tickets or from someone like me, who lives too far away to attend. I could make a contribution to the team that I support on an annual basis.

This would also set up the possibility of selling off either of both parts of the club to new owners over time.

That is almost exactly how the club has been ran for years.

 

[Decent_Left]

Who knows? There are plenty of clubs doing better or worse than us with a chairman that isn't Steve Gibson.

There are a few questions that could answer whether someone else might be more suitable.
For a start, would someone else run us better so they don't need to pay £21m of their own money?
Are we being optimally run? The answer is clearly no so can we be better run?

A reminder that every single club in the Championship is being run on a sub optimal basis.

The moment that sub optimal becomes a Death Point is called the Mel Morris event.

 

[Nano]

A reminder that every single club in the Championship is being run on a sub optimal basis.

The moment that sub optimal becomes a Death Point is called the Mel Morris event.

That's not true. There are plenty of well run clubs. Well run doesn't mean achieving success on the pitch, it means has the correct procedures and processes in place. If you are well run you have more chance of achieving success but it's no guarantee. Same the other way around. Basket cases can still be successful.

 

[Decent_Left]

That's not true. There are plenty of well run clubs. Well run doesn't mean achieving success on the pitch, it means has the correct procedures and processes in place. If you are well run you have more chance of achieving success but it's no guarantee. Same the other way around. Basket cases can still be successful.

So are we a well run club with a sniff of potential success about us or are we currently successful despite being a basket case?