"These things even themselves out"

[festa5]

People contesting the “they even themselves out” cliche is what brought us VAR!

In the championship let’s just all agree that we’re happy with things as they are, even poor refereeing decisions. There’s no alternative unless you want to endure the nonsense they have in the PL/CL.

I thought it was about crap refereeing decisions and a desire to get more of them correct.

But it was actually brought in all just because people understood how probability works and didn't like a cliché that says otherwise?

Wow, every day is a school day.

 

[futureboy]

In the championship let’s just all agree that we’re happy with things as they are, even poor refereeing decisions.

I'd say poor refereeing decisions are the main thing keeping me from happiness in this league. The fact that we can get thousands of people together in a stadium, play 90+ mins of football, yet have the match result directly influenced by one man with a flag or whistle is absolutely unacceptable and ridiculous.

 

[gregorgregorovich]

It can even itself. But there's just as much chance it won't.

Us getting a bad decision against us in one game has no bearing whatsoever on the chances of one going in our favour in subsequent games.

Anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't understand how probability works.

I've said this before, 7 out of 10 people understand how probability works, the other 6 out of 10 are rubbish at sums.

 

[The Card Cheat]

I thought it was about crap refereeing decisions and a desire to get more of them correct.

But it was actually brought in all just because people understood how probability works and didn't like a cliché that says otherwise?

Wow, every day is a school day.

The person who doesn't understand what something means is you, in my opinion.
Nobody uses the expression "These things even themselves out" to mean that mathematically a team will get precisely the exact same of bad decisions for them as they get against them, it simply means that generally speaking a team will sometimes benefit from bad decisions and sometimes lose out from bad decisions. This is an undisputable fact.
Hope that helps with your continued education.
Also we all understand how probability works, ta.

 

[atypical_boro]

I thought it was about crap refereeing decisions and a desire to get more of them correct.

But it was actually brought in all just because people understood how probability works and didn't like a cliché that says otherwise?

Wow, every day is a school day.

This is a bit chippier than usual from you, mate.

Its a cliche which is directly related to 'poor refereeing decisions', isn't it?

Football tried for, like, 150 years to get 'better refereeing decisions' before it turned to technology to help solve the problem. So far its doing an awful job AND is hampering the flow of games and the euphoria we fans often get from it.

Its a tough gig trying to get humans to just be better at something that they've been trying to be better at for over a century.

If most football fans just accepted that humans sometimes make errors, and didn't think it was all a big conspiracy against them when they were on the wrong end of it, we'd probably have never needed technology.

For me, the Championship is fine as it is (even when it goes against the Boro) compared to the PL/CL which are in this awful limbo between human errors AND use of technology that isn't enhancing the matches.

 

[atypical_boro]

I'd say poor refereeing decisions are the main thing keeping me from happiness in this league. The fact that we can get thousands of people together in a stadium, play 90+ mins of football, yet have the match result directly influenced by one man with a flag or whistle is absolutely unacceptable and ridiculous.

So how do you improve it, without technology?

(Whilst being fully aware that technology isn't solving any problems in the PL.)

 

[Starbuck]

We shouldn't get rid of VAR. We should get rid of Leeds.

 

[changingman]

So how do you improve it, without technology?

(Whilst being fully aware that technology isn't solving any problems in the PL.)

I'm a fan of VAR but I also think further codification of the rules would be useful, with out without VAR in use. Some of the definitions surrounding red card offences are vague at best.

 

[atypical_boro]

I'm a fan of VAR but I also think further codification of the rules would be useful, with out without VAR in use. Some of the definitions surrounding red card offences are vague at best.

I agree, but do you think that would 'solve' the problem and no one would ever contest referees anymore?

VAR was effectively meant to be football's 'solution', because 'further clarification of the rules' hadn't worked for 150 years.

 

[futureboy]

So how do you improve it, without technology?

(Whilst being fully aware that technology isn't solving any problems in the PL.)

You can't improve it without technology. You just have to apply the technology correctly and not put idiots in charge of it. That's the part the PL is getting wrong at the moment.

 

[atypical_boro]

You can't improve it without technology. You just have to apply the technology correctly and not put idiots in charge of it. That's the part the PL is getting wrong at the moment.

I fully agree. So until they've managed to get it working properly (which might be never, given humans are still involved) I'm happy to keep it out of the Championship.

 

[festa5]

The person who doesn't understand what something means is you, in my opinion.
Nobody uses the expression "These things even themselves out" to mean that mathematically a team will get precisely the exact same of bad decisions for them as they get against them, it simply means that generally speaking a team will sometimes benefit from bad decisions and sometimes lose out from bad decisions. This is an undisputable fact.
Hope that helps with your continued education.
Also we all understand how probability works, ta.

OK cool.

So you admit things don't actually even themselves out at all. (even = equal in number or amount. Happy to help ).

In which case it's a bit of a crap argument to use against VAR then isn't it?

 

[futureboy]

I fully agree. So until they've managed to get it working properly (which might be never, given humans are still involved) I'm happy to keep it out of the Championship.

I'm amazed that they're making such a simple process look so difficult, and still getting decisions wrong. Last night should've been - is he offside? - watch video literally once - yes, he is. Bang. Done with. Lord knows what would've happened with the likes of Attwell in charge, though.

 

[festa5]

This is a bit chippier than usual from you, mate.

Its a cliche which is directly related to 'poor refereeing decisions', isn't it?

Football tried for, like, 150 years to get 'better refereeing decisions' before it turned to technology to help solve the problem. So far its doing an awful job AND is hampering the flow of games and the euphoria we fans often get from it.

Its a tough gig trying to get humans to just be better at something that they've been trying to be better at for over a century.

If most football fans just accepted that humans sometimes make errors, and didn't think it was all a big conspiracy against them when they were on the wrong end of it, we'd probably have never needed technology.

For me, the Championship is fine as it is (even when it goes against the Boro) compared to the PL/CL which are in this awful limbo between human errors AND use of technology that isn't enhancing the matches.

Yeah sorry, was a bit salty from wasn't it

I don't really have a horse in this race. I agree with the principle of using some form of technology to help with decision making but also think the way VAR is being used is absolutely shockingly bad.

Certainly no desire to see it in the championship, but I could tolerate it.

 

[RenzoRosso]

what does "even themselves out" even mean? is it that you get the same amount of unfair decisions as you lose, or is it points? Quite different things. Also it (either points or decisions) might even it's self out over a long period but very unlikely to be within a 46 games season where one decision you get or one in a game you're not even involved in leads to your team being in our out of the play offs/automatics/relegation - 1 GD difference and your fortunes can be very different. I thought VAR was brought in to remove this kind of conjecture and improve fairness so if it isn't then it;s not fit for purpose. Cov/manu vs Boro/Leeds - if we accept that the cov player was a fraction offside then in this case that's a fairer outcome than the Boro/leeds decision as an in game comparison but for our game fairer for Ipswich who weren't involved directly but who Leeds gained points on. of course Leeds may have still won but what ifs are removed if the VAR decision is correct.

I think Var is crap but the intention is good. it needs improving.

 

[atypical_boro]

Yeah sorry, was a bit salty from wasn't it

I don't really have a horse in this race. I agree with the principle of using some form of technology to help with decision making but also think the way VAR is being used is absolutely shockingly bad.

Certainly no desire to see it in the championship, but I could tolerate it.

I think most football fans (if not literally 100%) are happy to use technology where it can be used objectively (like goal-line tech).

I think one day we will have more automated technology, touchline/by-line etc and may be even automated offsides (in fact aren't they bringing a load of new stuff in for the Euros and next season?), but whilst football works its way through all of that I'm happy to just live with 'poor' human refereeing decisions in the Champo. At least I can celebrate goals and be confident that they will count almost all of the time.

 

[junos_boots]

I thought there was an offside in the build up to their penalty when their defender headed it forward before it then went out to the wing.

Haven't seen any clear replays on that one though and goal clips always just show winger running into box and leaving his leg trailing looking for contact, which sadly he got

 

[Ex Footy Legs]

We had three goals in 4 games earlier in the season that were offside. Crooks, Jones X2.
We also scored a goal against Norwich away where we'd clearly committed a foul just before it.
That's just off the top of my head.
It does even itself out, we're just biased like all football fans
Norwich at home, never a red changed the game, there's another.

The Norwich sending off was arguably the most important moment in our season because we looked lost before that occurred and it ignited our 9 game unbeaten run

 

[Cuthbert]

Why not just get rid of the "Offside rule" ?

Interesting idea. They got rid of offside in hockey years ago. At the time I remember thinking it was going to result in goal hanging. In reality people tried that for a bit, bit the striker often ended up being out of the game. Admittedly it's harder to get a hockey ball up to a striker than booting a football long, over the top. Even so, I suspect the game might adapt in a similar way.

Not going to happen though!

 

[BoroMart]

We had three goals in 4 games earlier in the season that were offside. Crooks, Jones X2.
We also scored a goal against Norwich away where we'd clearly committed a foul just before it.
That's just off the top of my head.
It does even itself out, we're just biased like all football fans
Norwich at home, never a red changed the game, there's another.

So there’s a universal law that ensures that by the last game of the season it’s all evened out?! why does it always take 46 games to even out rather than 10 or 500, why does it always even out by May and not span over two or three seasons to even out? Is there a football god that oversees this?