This Brexit stuff just gets stranger

Ditto Morton Park @Darlington, drove past, the queue snaking around the roped off car park like they were waiting for a disney ride! They putting drugs in that damn burger?
 
dooderooni said:
I always remember that young lass on Gogglebox who said she didn't know enough about the consequences to make an informed decision about the vote.
Sadly, it is now becoming blatantly obvious that a large number of people who voted leave are only just thinking about the consequences.
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I’ve said it before but I firmly believe that only a tiny fraction of the electorate (both leave and remain) fully understood what the implications of really leaving the EU were. I had a reasonable grasp myself because EU law plays a major part in what I do for a living, most people aren’t exposed to it at all.

The thing, is if you don’t understand, play it safe. Don’t vote to roll the dice!

But it is done now and we can’t go back on it.
 
I watched a fair bit of Brexit stuff pre-reforemdum. If you were prepared to listen to both sides it became apparent that one was promising unicorns and the other was giving us warnings that were pretty obvious. I actually find it astonishing that people were surprised that leaving one of the biggest trade blocks in the world might make them poorer.

I had suspicions that the English were a stupid nation prior to Brexit, the vote confirmed it. We are a backwards little country. Hopefully in a generation or two we might mature and be more open and outward looking. And less racist.
 
atypical_boro said:
I’ve said it before but I firmly believe that only a tiny fraction of the electorate (both leave and remain) fully understood what the implications of really leaving the EU were. I had a reasonable grasp myself because EU law plays a major part in what I do for a living, most people aren’t exposed to it at all.

The thing, is if you don’t understand, play it safe. Don’t vote to roll the dice!

But it is done now and we can’t go back on it.
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I don't think people needed to fully understand it, so I'm not willing to accept that as any sort of excuse. I'm not willing to accept that "they were lied to" either, as everyone knows that politicians are mostly full of $hit, and loads of them went and voted against their normal party to vote for the tories, who in theory they should trust even less.

The very basics of it are extremely simple to understand:
They're 50% of our trade
Our biggest neighbours/ rivals
They're 10x the size of us
They have much more natural resources
They have cheaper and easier access to labour

Now, if anyone can read, and read that list and not put together that leaving the EU is going to be bad news, then they shouldn't be voting, as their misunderstanding is doing more harm than good.
 
There was a very simple test that people could/should have done

Which people do I want to be voting/associated with

Xenophobes and Racists (you might not be either but a vote to leave is undoubtedly a vote WITH them)
Serial liars like Johnson
Chancers like Farage

or...

If you are a Tory
Cameron and most of his cabinet
If you are Labour
Corbyn and most of his
If you are Liberal
Pretty much all of them
 
MolteniArcore said:
I watched a fair bit of Brexit stuff pre-reforemdum. If you were prepared to listen to both sides it became apparent that one was promising unicorns and the other was giving us warnings that were pretty obvious. I actually find it astonishing that people were surprised that leaving one of the biggest trade blocks in the world might make them poorer.

I had suspicions that the English were a stupid nation prior to Brexit, the vote confirmed it. We are a backwards little country. Hopefully in a generation or two we might mature and be more open and outward looking. And less racist.
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One was factual, the other was emotional. Cummings stipulated this apparently from the beginning.
Then came the barrage on social media and every other medium. Funded by some very dodgy money.
Some people look on it as a Coup...maybe it helps them feel better.
 
I think it’s correct that a good deal of the people that voted for Brexit were older and wouldn’t suffer the consequences of it being poo. It mostly seems to have been a vote based on nostalgia for a country they lived in when they were young but which never really existed, a mix of rose tinted spectacles and English exceptionalism.

Strange how all those posters who were so sure it was the right choice now seem to have absolutely nothing to say about it though isn’t it?

I wonder if they will still be banging on about the Freeport when that turns into a damp squib too?
 
Here are a couple of pictures that I feel explains some of what happened with the voting.

I know that level of education does not follow the same pattern as "common sense". However, although not perfect, I feel it is a reasonable measure of the ability to interpret information presented to you.

Extended education.jpg
BrexitVoting.jpg
 
Redwurzel said:
We had a large fishing industry in 1972 much bigger than now

How did we sell fish before 1973?
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You mean when the UK, Ireland and Denmark joined the small handful of counties that were already a part of the EU? Well, pretty simple really. We were part of the ‘Outer 7’ as opposed to the ‘Inner 6’ countries that were part of the EU. The Outer 7 were party to the European Fair Trade Association which ran in parallel with the EU and had the aim of removing barriers to trade and promoting free trade in goods amongst its member states. It still exists actually and is part of the single market and Schengen. At that time it also had a free trade deal with the EU. Sound at all familiar?

The difference now of course is that we have imposed trade barriers on ourselves given that we are out of the single market and out of the customs Union. The consequences of that are what you’re seeing now. That’s why comparing 1972 with 2021 is comparing apples and oranges.
 
It's 4 pages in before I've chipped in on this thread but I'll still get blamed for starting it!

I think people need to look at Cuba for a big warning here. Years ago sanctions were put on it from one of the largest trading blocs in the world. One that was but 90 miles of its Western shores. That island country hasn't done so well.

We, inexplicably, have imposed sanctions against ourselves with a massive trading partner just off our shores. How do we think we will fair any different to Cuba? How can it possibly be a good idea to give yourself sanctions against your nearest and biggest trading partner?
 
atypical_boro said:
The thing, is if you don’t understand, play it safe. Don’t vote to roll the dice!
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sadly the brexiteer campaign appealed to the masses by simplification slogans, e.g. 'we can take back control'. The reality is no nation can unilaterally control their own trade because, by default trade is a two way street that requires two independent bodies to come to agreement. But it sounds simple to the lazy layperson. These kind of slogans were designed to active Dunning-Kruger gene in the uneducated masses.
 
BoroMart said:
sadly the brexiteer campaign appealed to the masses by simplification slogans, e.g. 'we can take back control'. The reality is no nation can unilaterally control their own trade because, by default trade is a two way street that requires two independent bodies to come to agreement. But it sounds simple to the lazy layperson. These kind of slogans were designed to active Dunning-Kruger gene in the uneducated masses.
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I will admit I had to google Dunning-Kruger
 
Andy_W said:
I don't think people needed to fully understand it, so I'm not willing to accept that as any sort of excuse. I'm not willing to accept that "they were lied to" either, as everyone knows that politicians are mostly full of $hit, and loads of them went and voted against their normal party to vote for the tories, who in theory they should trust even less.
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see my previous post, people needed to at least approach it with an attitude of "I need to learn", but the majority are too lazy and instead just react to catchphrases and memes.

The lie bit IS valid. Just because all politicians lie at some point, it doesn't mean some lie more than others, or that all comments by politicians are lies. Brexit was built on lies, the majority of remain comments were grounded in the reality of the inherent risk. Brexit was a major transformation programme for our trading position and future economic strategy. Major transformation is always a risk. At no point did the leave campaign properly address those risks. Instead they lied that it wasn't a risk.
 
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spanishman said:
Here are a couple of pictures that I feel explains some of what happened with the voting.

I know that level of education does not follow the same pattern as "common sense". However, although not perfect, I feel it is a reasonable measure of the ability to interpret information presented to you.

View attachment 16285
View attachment 16286
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I used publicly available data sets for referendum vote by constituency and compared it to the degree educated by constituency data set. It showed a very high relationship between degree educated&remain and low-degree educated and leave. It's an undeniable link
 
BoroMart said:
see my previous post, people needed to at least approach it with an attitude of "I need to learn", but the majority are too lazy and instead just react to catchphrases and memes.

The lie bit IS valid. Just because all politicians lie at some point, it doesn't mean some lie more than others, or that all comments by politicians are lies. Brexit was built on lies, the majority of remain comments were grounded in the reality of the inherent risk. Brexit was a major transformation programme for our trading position and future economics. That is always risky. At no point did the leave campaign properly address those risks. Instead they lied that it wasn't a risk.
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I think it is a relatively recent thing that kids were educated to give them the tools to learn for themselves.

Or at least given the tools to help to identify simple false promises.

Add to that, in poorer parts of the UK there was a natural desire to hope that a change would be for the better.

So the education at the time for people of a similar age to me (62) was not as good as for many younger people. Hence me publishing the couple of images above.
 
People ought to be able to rely on Politicians not telling outright lies, as there should be a mechanism of accountability protecting us from that. There is only a system of conventions and customs, nothing enforceable by law or toothless institutions.

People ought to be able to rely on a free press and investigative journalism to get to the truth of politicians positions and promises. They were badly let down.

The people who voted leave are far less culpable than those two groups.

However those who stayed with Leave as more truth, evidence and information became available and public, yet refused to listen and reconsider, did not try to reverse their error or join the campaign for a confirmatory referendum, they ARE just as much to blame now.
 
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