This Lindsay Hoyle business

Scrote said:
This makes no sense.
Do you want a state-funded NHS? That's an ideology.
Do you want regulation of financial institutions? That's an ideology.
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You are now stating that having any political viewpoint on any point is automatically ideology. It isn’t.

Having all your views on everything aligned to a single concept, with no pragmatism and with no room for any other nuances in the mix is ideology.

I believe in an nhs, but also believe that those that want to can go private. I believe that to manage demand some private services could be used as a capacity overflow for the nhs. That’s pragmatic.

I believe in publically owned travel…but not airlines. BA is one of the few privatisations I agree with primarily because it’s not a necessity in this country, it’s a luxury.

I believe in regulation of the financial industry to ensure consumers and the economy are protected from risky practices. But the financial sector is an important part of our economy and those limits shouldn’t curtail all risk.

It’s pretty simple really
 
BoroMart said:
Cameron, when push came to shove was a right winger in centrist clothing. Never really a centrist
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Well yes but thats broadly what happens with every political hero to centrists. See Blair, Starmer, Rory Stewart, etc. They're all right wingers in centrist clothing.

BoroMart said:
Milliband vs Milliband, that’s a personality politic point. I’d have taken either above Cameron as their policies were both more centrist than the right wing libertarian driven ideology of austerity
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Whatever its based on, the centrists didn't get the exact candidate they wanted and have gone on about it for 14 years since. My point was it hardly backs up the idea of an inherent pragmatism in centrist political thinking.
 
I don't suppose anyone knows what Diane Abbott was going to say if she had been called on?
 
BoroMart said:
You are now stating that having any political viewpoint on any point is automatically ideology. It isn’t.

Having all your views on everything aligned to a single concept, with no pragmatism and with no room for any other nuances in the mix is ideology.

I believe in an nhs, but also believe that those that want to can go private. I believe that to manage demand some private services could be used as a capacity overflow for the nhs. That’s pragmatic.

I believe in publically owned travel…but not airlines. BA is one of the few privatisations I agree with primarily because it’s not a necessity in this country, it’s a luxury.

I believe in regulation of the financial industry to ensure consumers and the economy are protected from risky practices. But the financial sector is an important part of our economy and those limits shouldn’t curtail all risk.

It’s pretty simple really
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No. I'm saying that ideology is formed around political viewpoints. The sum of viewpoints dictates the ideology. Which is why I don't understand the whole centrist thing when it can be replaced (in many cases) with Liberal.

It's also why someone can't declare themselves an ideological Marxist whilst espousing Capitalism. Any single viewpoint doesn't give enough information but a collection of viewpoints can help pinpoint where someone sits politically. If those viewpoints regularly change, then yes, I'd be happy to say that someone has no ideology. If those viewpoints remain consistent then that, to my mind, is an ideological mindset.

I'd largely expect most politically engaged adults to have a fairly well established ideology. I'd hope that many of the less politically engaged at least know where they stand on a variety of issues.

It's why someone like Lee Anderson is such an odd potato when looked at without any prior knowledge of his history. Moving from Labour to Reform would usually require a complete about-turn in ideological terms.

BoroMart said:
I believe in an nhs, but also believe that those that want to can go private. I believe that to manage demand some private services could be used as a capacity overflow for the nhs. That’s pragmatic.
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More specifically, I see something like the above and immediately want to ask you if this was your opinion in e.g. 2007, when the NHS was fully funded and waiting lists were at a minimum? Would you have argued that a more pragmatic approach would be to underfund the NHS for a decade and then utilise private services for the overflow? I know a bunch of people that did. They have a label that begins with a massive C...*

If you're saying that "based on where we are now, this is what I'd start to do to mitigate the problems" then where are you wanting to stop? What level of private vs public is acceptable and why?


*Conservatives
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Yes but the ones I mentioned were exaggerations or insults; people referring to people on the left as extreme or loony. I wasn't just listing labels for the fun of it.
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Only now are you describing them as exaggerations or insults. Back then, before my reply, they were simply "labels" :unsure:
 
LessoftheLip said:
Or dropping in labels like Tory-light, Starmerites, centrist-central etc. when a simple "centre-left" would be more appropriate.
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It's interesting that you appear to be equating Tory-light with your notion of centre-left. I think that's probably where our difference of opinion largely lies. In my world-view, the Tory-left is still on the right - both socially and economically. If you believe that 'there lies the centre' and you're a bit to the left of them then I can see why you consider yourself centre-left.

I did try to define these things on a thread once before and got pelters so I'll not bother again, but you've opened my eyes slightly to how other people think.
 
Scrote said:
It's interesting that you appear to be equating Tory-light with your notion of centre-left.
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No I am not. I would say the label "Tory-lite" is not appropriate to describe my outlook. Inappropriate ≡ ill-suited.

Scrote said:
In my world-view, the Tory-left is still on the right - both socially and economically. If you believe that 'there lies the centre' and you're a bit to the left of them then I can see why you consider yourself centre-left.
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I agree that Tory-left is still on the right but I don't subscribe to your view that I am equating Tory-light with my notion of centre-left. Therefore I don't consider Tory-left to be the centre spot of UK politics with all other labels/descriptions flowing from that.

Scrote said:
I did try to define these things on a thread once before and got pelters so I'll not bother again
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I remember :ROFLMAO:
 
Scrote said:
No. I'm saying that ideology is formed around political viewpoints. The sum of viewpoints dictates the ideology. Which is why I don't understand the whole centrist thing when it can be replaced (in many cases) with Liberal.

It's also why someone can't declare themselves an ideological Marxist whilst espousing Capitalism. Any single viewpoint doesn't give enough information but a collection of viewpoints can help pinpoint where someone sits politically. If those viewpoints regularly change, then yes, I'd be happy to say that someone has no ideology. If those viewpoints remain consistent then that, to my mind, is an ideological mindset.

I'd largely expect most politically engaged adults to have a fairly well established ideology. I'd hope that many of the less politically engaged at least know where they stand on a variety of issues.

It's why someone like Lee Anderson is such an odd potato when looked at without any prior knowledge of his history. Moving from Labour to Reform would usually require a complete about-turn in ideological terms.


More specifically, I see something like the above and immediately want to ask you if this was your opinion in e.g. 2007, when the NHS was fully funded and waiting lists were at a minimum? Would you have argued that a more pragmatic approach would be to underfund the NHS for a decade and then utilise private services for the overflow? I know a bunch of people that did. They have a label that begins with a massive C...*

If you're saying that "based on where we are now, this is what I'd start to do to mitigate the problems" then where are you wanting to stop? What level of private vs public is acceptable and why?


*Conservatives
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You don’t need to get it as it isn’t your political position. I agree the sum of viewpoints would equate to ideology of they are all of the same bent, and not balanced and pragmatic.


It has always been my viewpoint, well certainly for as long as I remember having a fully formed view in
It, well well before 2007. I think you are completely misinterpreting the stand point if that’s what you think centrist means…you’re describing a contrarian standpoint not a balanced one. Not only have you totally misrepresented my stance but you seem to be calling me a c… for having that view I don’t have 🙄
 
The big question that needs answering is do the Central Committee have the power to remove Starmer, or will the Politburo have enough sway to withstand this move. Will it all unravel at the Party Congress, and Central Committee become largely a symbolic organ that will responsible to the Politburo, and not the other way around. We can only wait and see.
Meanwhile all the centrists have been lined up against a wall and shot.😉
 
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