Tories battered

[Funky_Chicken]

Thays not how it works. You can do thay if you like. But thay means you get the Tories. It's that simple. You can get on your high horse. You can peptrate the blatant lie that "they are all the same" or you can sit on your hands waiting to the politician who is perfectly what you want. All of these things allow corruption to propagate and will leave us stuck with the tories

It’s not a blatant lie though is it - Starmer has already demonstrated he won’t stick to Labours ten pledges. If he got the keys to number ten all we’d get is a red coloured version of the Conservative party - they’re just two cheeks of the same ****. Makes me laugh how people think it would be hunky dory with Starmer running things, it simply wouldn’t. Anyway even with the Tories in a mess i just don’t see Starmer getting enough votes to form a majority government. Johnson may well be gone by the time the next election comes along as well.

 

[SmallTown]

It’s not a blatant lie though is it - Starmer has already demonstrated he won’t stick to Labours ten pledges. If he got the keys to number ten all we’d get is a red coloured version of the Conservative party - they’re just two cheeks of the same ****. Makes me laugh how people think it would be hunky dory with Starmer running things, it simply wouldn’t. Anyway even with the Tories in a mess i just don’t see Starmer getting enough votes to form a majority government. Johnson may well be gone by the time the next election comes along as well.

You've sent the list of things Johnson has done. So the "all the same thing" is either a lie or yiu truly believe Starmer would do all those things. If you do I'd love to know how you've formed that opinion?

 

[HolgateCorner]

During Starmer's leadership the party has been:

Against increasing corporation tax
In favour of spy cops infiltrating trade unions
Against nationalising energy companies
In favour of a lower payrise for nurses than the tories ended up awarding
In favour of the tories outlawing protests
And just this week
Against railworkers exercising their right to go on a strike that has been legitimately voted for by union members.

Will anyone really ever remember any of that list? Why give the Tories the diversions and distractions they desperately need? The Mail has been frothing this week about Labour MPs on picket lines whilst trying to invoke the spirit of Thatcher.

The Tories are in power with a big majority thanks to Labour infighting up to 2019. Corbyn continually defeating the government in the Commons in the run up to the last election simply made Labour seem like saboteurs rather than a government in waiting.

The next election will be fought in the 5 or 6 weeks before polling day, that’s when the floating voters focus in on what the leaders are saying and offering. Single or double digit leads are irrelevant at this stage. In the meantime destroying Johnson’s reputation (not difficult, I know) is a good start.

 

[SmallTown]

What a hypocrite you are.



I find it distasteful in the extreme that Scrug, who's just said he's a lifelong Labour voter, is getting admonishments about this government from someone like yourself, given you voted for this. A bit of contrition once in a while would do you the world of good ST! The reality is people like YOU are the reason we're in this mess. YOU voted to be in this mess.

You think that by trying to trash Labour, scrug is doing anything other than enabling the tories

 

[SuperStu]

You think that by trying to trash Labour, scrug is doing anything other than enabling the tories

See my last post to you. You're in no position to judge others and a little humility from you once in a while would make you a much better poster on this board.

If Labour (against the odds, thanks to Starmers anti internal democracy reforms) somehow had a more left wing leader again you'd probably be among the first going straight back to voting tory.

 

[SuperStu]

Will anyone really ever remember any of that list?

Well tbf Boromart asked what Starmer policies anyone could disagree with, I was just offering an answer. Those were off the top of my head there's probably been a lot more.

 

[Funky_Chicken]

You've sent the list of things Johnson has done. So the "all the same thing" is either a lie or yiu truly believe Starmer would do all those things. If you do I'd love to know how you've formed that opinion?

What ? I haven’t sent any list of what Johnson has done ! I can guarantee you though everyone will be moaning about how bad things are under Starmer five years from now if he managed to form a government . Labour doesn’t represent the ordinary working man or woman anymore, it’s completely moved away from its traditional roots and morphed into another version of the Tories, which is one reason why they’ve lost so many members over the last 18 months

 

[HolgateCorner]

Well tbf Boromart asked what Starmer policies anyone could disagree with, I was just offering an answer. Those were off the top of my head there's probably been a lot more.

Well tbf Boromart asked what Starmer policies anyone could disagree with, I was just offering an answer. Those were off the top of my head there's probably been a lot more.

That’s fair comment but I think that they are really Starmer’s stance on Tory policies rather than Labour’s own, and there is a difference. Don’t forget Blair spent the run up to the 1997 landslide saying he was basically going to carry forward a lot of Tory economic policy.

 

[SuperStu]

Don’t forget Blair spent the run up to the 1997 landslide saying he was basically going to carry forward a lot of Tory economic policy.

True. But Labour also went in to 97 promising devolution, house of lords reform, electoral reform, and to renationalise the railways! Okay in practice they only went ahead with 1 and a half of those but it was still a bold policy offer.

Starmer's Labour is more like the New Labour of 2005-10 than 97. There'll be no big constitutional changes on offer. I know a lot of folk are deluding themselves that he'll suddenly be up for PR. Not a chance.

 

[SuperStu]

What ? I haven’t sent any list of what Johnson has done !

I think it was a typo for "seen". As in you've seen the list of things Johnson has done that ST posted (post #107, this thread).

It was a good list tbf. Boris is an awful man. The funny thing is the list included proroguing parliament, hiding in a fridge, and lying to parliament. All of which Boris had done before ST voted tory in 2019. Do as he says, not as he does I guess.

 

[Scrug]

Any (former) Labour supporter who has an ounce of pride would be voting this shower of sh@te out, no question. I find it hard to believe you've ever voted Labour in your life and are no doubt one of the shy Tories on here that no matter what Johnson does, you'll vote for him. Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson is toast at the next General Election (if he survives that long by spinning yet more lies), Labour will win.

Read the latest Johnson gaff today? Wants to build a £150000 tree house for his son. Un Fecking Believable. Keep voting for them though eh?


Blockhead

Again, I have never and will never vote Conservative. And I genuinely don’t understand how anyone who grew up in the north east could.

This is the problem. Again, nobody has said anything other than ‘how bad is Boris?’ Or ‘the Tories are worse’ rather than praise Starmer. He’s broke his pledges, I doubt a vote for him would change anything other than getting the corrupt ***** out.

As I said, I’m undecided and I’ll decide what to do when I have more information and in all honesty it’ll probably still be Labour. But **** me, the way some of you lot carry on it wouldn’t surprise me if people did vote conservative just to screw you over.

 

[Scrug]

Actually I did once vote Lib Dem, Nick Clegg promised me the world.

 

[BoroMart]

Matters not a jot either way - all you’re voting for at the election is which stick you want to be beaten with, the Tory stick or the Labour stick. Do you really think any of these people running things give a **** about us plebs - we’re just cannon fodder to them

yes, some of them do. The old argument that they all beat you doesn't really add when you look at the data.

We didn't have a cost of living crisis under the last labour government, we didn't have a failed economy, we had more consecutive periods of growth than we have ever had since records began.

We had proper wage growth for the working and middle classes, we had a contraction of the gap between teh 1% and the 99%....which is why labours record has been assassinated for 12 years by the rich media mogals who don't want the same to happen again.

 

[BoroMart]

Against increasing corporation tax
In favour of spy cops infiltrating trade unions
Against nationalising energy companies
In favour of a lower payrise for nurses than the tories ended up awarding
In favour of the tories outlawing protests
And just this week
Against railworkers exercising their right to go on a strike that has been legitimately voted for by union members.

now probably isn't the time to do a increase in corporation tax, they have been for an increase in tax on extreme wealth though

Energy companies would be a huge investment that we probably can't afford, I'd be happy to start with renationalising trains. To solve the energy crisis we need to improve the green energy, improve homes with solar and better insulation.

I have no idea about the spy cops thing, but would like to see what they preposed or if that was simply a question to starmer that he didnt say no too.

I don't buy that public sector workers wouldn't be better paid under labour, they always have been and lets see what the pre-election manifesto says on that one.

outlawing protests....I don't agree with

It isn't a labour policy to go against union voted strikes, there's a bit of a media fear at the moment that everything they say will be pounced on and twisted, so they are taking the line of least resistance on many things. I suspect labour are really happy about these strikes, but it shows the discontent in the populous, but they can't vocalise that.

 

[SuperStu]

we didn't have a failed economy

we had a contraction of the gap between teh 1% and the 99%

Sorry Mart, got to pull you up on these two. On the first one of course we had the 2007 global financial crisis.

On the second, in fact the gap between rich and poor did increase during the new Labour years. The context maybe makes it less of an issue for some. The number of people in poverty reduced but because New Labour avoided any increases in tax for high earners, wages at the top outstripped the gains at the bottom.

I'd be happy to start with renationalising trains.

Sounds great! I'd prefer you as Labour leader to Starmer already then. Sadly he's the guy in the hot seat and it's become clear over the last 2 and a half years that there'll be no left wing gains like that on his watch.

 

[SuperStu]

now probably isn't the time to do a increase in corporation tax, they have been for an increase in tax on extreme wealth though

We've had a tory government for 12 years. I'd treat any progressive policy like a boro promotion now. Grab it with both hands whenever there's a chance. I never understand the chat about not being ready or wanting to put off success to next season.

 

[BoroMart]

Sorry Mart, got to pull you up on these two. On the first one of course we had the 2007 global financial crisis.

The global financial crisis wasn't of labours making and the economy was pretty healthy for years before that, like I said month on month growth for the most consecutive periods. This economic failure is certainly at least partly down to tory policy.

On the second, in fact the gap between rich and poor did increase during the new Labour years.

OK, let me frame it another way, wage growth under labour for the working man far outstripped the rise in inflation. People were wealthier in almost every sector of society.

 

[BoroMart]

We've had a tory government for 12 years. I'd treat any progressive policy like a boro promotion now. Grab it with both hands whenever there's a chance. I never understand the chat about not being ready or wanting to put off success to next season.

change isn't needed.......the RIGHT change is needed. Saying any change is good is the difference between strategy and guesswork. I'm no economist but I understand you need to grow your way out of economic crisis, and it's difficult to grow if your taxing corporations, which will simply make cut backs to protect shareholder profits.

 

[SuperStu]

and it's difficult to grow if your taxing corporations, which will simply make cut backs to protect shareholder profits

or it pushes companies to invest in more staff, more training, etc in order to reduce that taxable profit, therefore generating the growth you needed...

change isn't needed.......the RIGHT change is needed. Saying any change is good is the difference between strategy and guesswork.

Higher corporation tax was the right change when he needed Labour members votes in April 2020. I don't agree that it was suddenly a bad policy a year later. I think you'd have to be a bit naive to buy that. Starmer lied. That's the occams razor answer. He lied to get what he wanted - winning the leadership contest.

 

[BoroMart]

or it pushes companies to invest in more staff, more training, etc in order to reduce that taxable profit, therefore generating the growth you needed...

Not in my experience of british companies.

Higher corporation tax was the right change when he needed Labour members votes in April 2020. I

pre-covid pandemic, and pre the government destroying the economy. I've no doubt their could be a place for it, just not imminently.