Tories battered

[SuperStu]

The Lib Dems will want it as part of a pact

Just look at 2010-2015. The Lib Dems can obviously be played like a fiddle in a coalition. And that was when they had 40-50 odd seats. What's anyone realistically expecting them to bring to a Labour coalition? 15-25? An even weaker position surely.

 

[jam69]

Laughing I'm not saying you're totally wrong but you're not totally right either. Of course the marginal seats are important in our system. Of course swing voters are the ticket to winning the marginal seats.

But I think some people end up convincing themselves that what is or isn't a marginal seat is somehow fixed or ordained from on high.

Labour didn't care what Scottish voters thought because they already had their votes, until they didn't.

Labour didn't care what "red wall" voters thought because they already had their votes, until they didn't.

It's all well and good basing your entire strategy on a specific target audience in specific target seats... if it works. But it has to be taken as agiven that such a strategy includes a risk that you lose other voters and potentially create marginals out of safe seats. A bit like a football manager throwing players forwards to try and get a goal.

I don't think it was so much labour taking scottish voters for granted , more the SNP realising if they could secure the support of the veterinary favour of independence they would be untouchable, if around 45% upwards can be persuaded to vote on a single issue you couldn't lose the seat.
It's the same with brexit, that's what johnson and Co tapped into.
A good chunk of the population are not interested in the vast number of polices but if there's one they can nail their colours to the mast the other stuff doesn't matter.
Pro independence first the rest isn't that important
Pro brexit first the rest isn't important.
Iam seeing many tories saying the fact that their Wakefield candidate wasn't Pro brexit cost them the seat.
That's the problem labour have, moving the issues away from brexit/independence

 

[HolgateCorner]

Just look at 2010-2015. The Lib Dems can obviously be played like a fiddle in a coalition. And that was when they had 40-50 odd seats. What's anyone realistically expecting them to bring to a Labour coalition? 15-25? An even weaker position surely.

Played like a fiddle but they still got a PR vote out of the Tories and this time around after the mess of the recent Tory years I think a lot of people would grab the chance of PR if offered again.

 

[HolgateCorner]

I don't think it was so much labour taking scottish voters for granted , more the SNP realising if they could secure the support of the veterinary favour of independence they would be untouchable, if around 45% upwards can be persuaded to vote on a single issue you couldn't lose the seat.
It's the same with brexit, that's what johnson and Co tapped into.
A good chunk of the population are not interested in the vast number of polices but if there's one they can nail their colours to the mast the other stuff doesn't matter.
Pro independence first the rest isn't that important
Pro brexit first the rest isn't important.
Iam seeing many tories saying the fact that their Wakefield candidate wasn't Pro brexit cost them the seat.
That's the problem labour have, moving the issues away from brexit/independence

Was the Labour candidate pro Brexit? He got nearly 50% of the vote.

 

[jam69]

Was the Labour candidate pro Brexit? He got nearly 50% of the vote.

No, and I think labour would have won regardless, but there's no doubt there's still a big % of voters who can be persuaded not to vote Labour by framing labour as anti brexit.it worked in hartlepool
That's why I think labour need to steer the conversation away from brexit and not to fall into thise tory traps, its all the tories have left.

 

[RoaryTheLion]

And I find just attacking people because of who they are and not what they are saying unfair. We all have different standards I gues

Are you accusing me of attacking you? Any chance you can not deflect my query and answer it. Who are you quoting? Is it an intentional tactic of yours? Twist words and repeat until it sticks in the consciousness. Your debating ability lacks nuance and panache. It’s a difficult skill to master. All in my humble and honest opinion of course.

 

[HolgateCorner]

No, and I think labour would have won regardless, but there's no doubt there's still a big % of voters who can be persuaded not to vote Labour by framing labour as anti brexit.it worked in hartlepool
That's why I think labour need to steer the conversation away from brexit and not to fall into thise tory traps, its all the tories have left.

I agree I think Labour should just say Brexit is now behind us and we will make the best we can of it.

I actually think Johnson would team up with Farage if the Tories kicked him out and offer some new spin on doing Brexit (and controlling immigration) properly with a new political party free of all the Tory wets who are trying to undermine him.

 

[SuperStu]

Played like a fiddle but they still got a PR vote out of the Tories and this time around after the mess of the recent Tory years I think a lot of people would grab the chance of PR if offered again.

They got an AV+ vote. Which is a different form of FPTP. Its not PR. And they lost it 70-30. It's akin to saying they got nothing, which was my point.

 

[Emmersons_BrazillianDong]

I will never vote Tory for as long as I live.


I agree it is strange. It’s not a nice feeling to have, usually I have aligned with the views of Labour, not all of them, but most.

I don’t anymore, I don’t know who will get my vote. I’ll decide nearer to the time. This week Labour have been shown up by an RMT Unionist who is asking the questions and making the points Labour should be. Why is Starmer silent?

I don’t see a Labour government under Starmer as much different to this one.

I think what we've seen is a lot of labour MPs disregarding the party line and joining picket lines. I'm not aware of a single tory MP that offered ANY support.

I'm not sticking up for Starmer but it strikes me that it's possible, given I've not heard him say anything formally about not joining strikes, that this might be a tactic.

Whether we like it or not, the strikes are very divisive for an awful lot of the middle ground.

The reason I'm making this link as a possible tactic is the very clear attack strategy pf the tories and press trying to align the strikes as Starmers strikes.

If the official party line is not for people to join pickets then he can distance himself from responsibility. Will there be any consequences for those who went ahead anyway? I'm not sure there will.

 

[Johnny Vincents Motorbike]

And Proportional Representation will NEVER be introduced in the UK.

it could be a point to consider when there is no longer a 'UK'.

De Pfeffel and his cohorts are well on the road to breaking the union up - they want to rule England - they believe they can still get considerably rich just having the keys and authority of just the one parliament - 'england' will be enough for them - it will give them access to all they desire and they believe that they can win in england again and again and again.

the so called 'patriots' are enabling this - its what they are being pupeteered for.

 

[SmallTown]

Are you accusing me of attacking you? Any chance you can not deflect my query and answer it. Who are you quoting? Is it an intentional tactic of yours? Twist words and repeat until it sticks in the consciousness. Your debating ability lacks nuance and panache. It’s a difficult skill to master. All in my humble and honest opinion of course.

I'm quoting funky chicken. Then stu came in and attacked me but utterly ignored what I had said. So he was totally personal with no regard for the subject.matter. You just piled on. I have no idea who you are

Do you think all politicians are the same?

 

[RoaryTheLion]

I'm quoting funky chicken. Then stu came in and attacked me but utterly ignored what I had said. So he was totally personal with no regard for the subject.matter. You just piled on. I have no idea who you are

Do you think all politicians are the same?

I’m a person who believes in honest and fair debate. I’ll pull up anyone who I think is deliberately disingenuous. You need to respond or open yourself up to criticism. Who were you quoting?
I have no dog in the British electoral fight. I don’t live in the U.K. and I am unable to vote. I do think people like scrug should be able to express nuanced and sensible opinions without your style of rabid and repeated attack. Things are not always so black and white. The bloke even said he’s likely to still vote Labour and yet it’s still not enough to stop you frothing at the mouth.
You don’t know who I am? That’s dandy. I’ll be around to dissect your attempts at debate. You never know, you might learn something.

 

[SmallTown]

I’m a person who believes in honest and fair debate. I’ll pull up anyone who I think is deliberately disingenuous. You need to respond or open yourself up to criticism. Who were you quoting?
I have no dog in the British electoral fight. I don’t live in the U.K. and I am unable to vote. I do think people like scrug should be able to express nuanced and sensible opinions without your style of rabid and repeated attack. Things are not always so black and white. The bloke even said he’s likely to still vote Labour and yet it’s still not enough to stop you frothing at the mouth.
You don’t know who I am? That’s dandy. I’ll be around to dissect your attempts at debate. You never know, you might learn something.

Why do you keep asking me who I was quoting when I've already answered. That's not open and honest debate. That's a niggly little dig.

By the way. I'll ignore the fact you're not answering my question. You really should becasue it would take you away from personal sleights but I don't expect that level of decency from someone like you

 

[RoaryTheLion]

My bad, I missed that. Apologies. Can you point me to the number of the post in which Funky_Chicken said the words you continually quoted?

 

[RoaryTheLion]

Why do you keep asking me who I was quoting when I've already answered. That's not open and honest debate. That's a niggly little dig.

By the way. I'll ignore the fact you're not answering my question. You really should becasue it would take you away from personal sleights but I don't expect that level of decency from someone like you

I absolutely do not think all politicians are the same. Categorically so. Now, your turn.

I strongly recommend you do some reading around the subject. This might be a nice place to start:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338554984_THE_ART_OF_DEBATE

You certainly have admirable passion and with some self-reflection and commitment, you could become a skilful debater. It’s probably best to leave out the passive aggression. Water off a duck’s back. I’ll continue to encourage you to improve.

 

[r00fie1]

I disagree. We've been through this a million times so I'm not going to talk about history.

My point to struggle and chicken still stands. Labour infighting and saying "they are all the same" when they really aren't is enabling the Tories. Its going to help them win the next general election. I've seen no one attempt to prove that wrong.

"Labour infighting"

Have you seen the gaping chasm in the Governing party?
40% of its sitting MP`s voted "no confidence" in their Prime-Minister.
2 days ago Oliver Dowden resigned as Conservative Party Chair.
3 Senior advisers have resigned since turn of the new year.
Some Cabinet Ministers have leaked through the media - they dont want Johnson, and a large number of MPs are ready to challenge the 1-year rule regarding votes of no-confidence in the party leader.

"Infighting"?

Challenging the staus quo and causing division amongst his own members and MP`s?

Johnson is certainly getting that "job done"

* I post to you [rarely] in response to a this particular post.
Not because of who or what you are.

 

[RoaryTheLion]

Why do you keep asking me who I was quoting when I've already answered. That's not open and honest debate. That's a niggly little dig.

By the way. I'll ignore the fact you're not answering my question. You really should becasue it would take you away from personal sleights but I don't expect that level of decency from someone like you

Here’s another article that might be of interest to you:

WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO CHANGE YOUR MIND? on JSTOR

PETER THIELKE, WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO CHANGE YOUR MIND?, Metaphilosophy, Vol. 45, No. 3 (July 2014), pp. 462-472

www.jstor.org

It’s a meta-philosophical study regarding how an unwillingness to have one’s viewpoint altered in the light of new evidence suggests stunted critical thinking skills. It really helped me to think on a deeper and more nuanced level.

 

[HolgateCorner]

They got an AV+ vote. Which is a different form of FPTP. Its not PR. And they lost it 70-30. It's akin to saying they got nothing, which was my point.

I disagree, it was for transferable vote wasn’t it? That’s surely a form of PR and could have unlocked the door to further reform down the line.

Just because the Lib Dems didn’t get anything through that time does not mean you should stop trying.

With that approach only the aristocracy and clergy would still be allowed to vote in elections.

Putting that to one side are you against PR or your ‘AV+’ or fairer systems of voting?

Labour should make it a manifesto pledge, it’s time our medieval parliament did what it tells the public to do and modernise itself.

 

[JackG]

Would love Andy burnham to be leader, I think he could bridge the gap between the left and centre of the party

Burnham is a flouncer, like Miliband, D

 

[Same_as_before]

Increasing Corporation tax is pointless. Big companies don't pay it anyway, it is simple to transfer profit to say Malta where the tax rate is 4%.

As for income tax 'More than 25% of all income tax revenue is paid by the top 1% of taxpayers, i.e. taxpayers with the highest incomes, and 90% of all income tax revenue is paid by the top 50% of taxpayers with the highest incomes.'

Stop using easy phrases and think of something new.

To get real cash it has to be on transfer of capital, I.e from mummy and daddy to you and me and an increase in stamp duty on share dealing.