Warnock - 'a few things wrong at the club'

Pulis felt the signings he inherited weren't balanced - we had brought in all those forwards, almost without thinking how they could fit together as a strikeforce. He felt the squad was seriously unbalanced. From what we have read, Steve Gibson later questioned what lay behind some of those buys and the prices. But I cannot really go further into that.
From my part I was excited about the appointment of Garry Monk, lots of us were. He was really highly thought of in the game at the time. But I soon found that I could not understand what he was saying at press conferences. Maybe not important except I wondered if anyone really knew what he was trying to achieve on the pitch. Did the players understand him?
So, Tony Pulis was faced with having to balance the books but also balance the team. He bought a goal scoring midfielder and goalscoring defender loved by his own fans. But had to sell assets and not the players he necessarily wanted to sell but those who were in demand and could command fees.
I guess we are now almost at the start of a new cycle. How do we plan going forward. Warnock is a manager that likes to buy players but then so did Monk. How many managers can you trust like Warnock or do you put in a system like Brentford where the coach is just that and coaches the players the club nurtures and signs? That is not a club Warnock or Pulis would be comfortable with. That was the system Karanka said he wanted, he was a European style head coach, hence why he never went to signings press conferences. But the evidence was that he didn't agree with many signings bought for him.
Anyway, at a time when we have very little money we will need to work out a strategy going forward and surely having a management dropping anchor for a couple of seasons is the only realistic way of truly getting a system and a plan bedded in.
I think that the penny had dropped that A LOT of money had been spent on overpriced forwards that were not necessarily suited playing together.
Bamford, Assombalonga, Gestede, Braithwaite all were spoken about as being number nines.

an offer for £6m from Leeds for Gestede was turned down during Monk's tenure. Pullis didn't fancy Bamford as a striker and saw him as easy money to bring in.
Braithwaite was bombed out pretty quickly. the idea of all this happening and then paying £2m to loan in Hugill at a time where we supposedly awash with strikers does not sit comfortably with me.. then losing so much money on Aden Flint was a kick in the teeth. McNair was brought in as a midfielder which justified his price tag I think.. but Saville for £8m at the same time as criticising Monk for wasting money is a bit rich!! I think Saville is great by the way and would have been worth every penning of a £4m move at the time.

We had problems resulting from having a full time recruitment team apparently handing an open cheque book to Gary Monk.. this was not resolved under Pullis with his dreadful signings and we were still suffering the effects under Woodgate. Things have improved under Warnock, but in situations that should have been akin to shooting fish in a barrel we ended up shooting ourselves in the foot.
 
Ref Balancing in the Summer of 2018 I tend to agree with Block 21 and Ted - why sell Bamford to bring in a very expensive Saville? (we had lots of central midfielders Howson, Leadbitter, Clayton, Wing and Besic) why sell Bamford and bring in Hugill (if we had too many forwards). We were crying out for wide attacking players none were signed and Johnson was sent out on loan. Hull wanted Fletcher but he was kept so it was not true there was no interest.

I could understand trying Flint for Gibson, but we needed a Traore replacement. Shotton was playing right back and he never looked quite right there for me.
I think it was probably time to let go of Leadbitter and Clayton after relegation which would have been an absolute kick in the guts.. but the new lads never seemed to gel. The choices we made were poor and the players brought in were not suitable..

on paper it probably looked like it would work

Randolph/Meijas

Shotton/Christie
Ayala/
Gibson/Fry
Friend/Fabio

Howson/Leadbitter
Clayton/Baker

Traore/Harrison
Braithwaite/Downing
Bamford/Johnson

Britt/Gestede

* should have kept Forshaw

Our downfall with those players was signing Britt, retaining Gestede, not playing Traore, not buying Braithwaite as a number 10 if he wasn't going to play there.. same with Bamford on the left really. Why have attacking wingbacks if you don't have a midfield to support it? some very, very odd decisions being made.

Randolph
Shotton--Ayala--Gibson--Friend - good backline
--------Howson--Clayton-------- - didn't gel, our midfielders had been drilled in 4-2-3-1
Traore/Harrison--Downing/Braithwaite--Johnson/Bamford
--------Braithwaite/Britt---------

Downing wasn't going to be our number 10, Braithwaite didn't want to be, Johnson bought but not used,.. not a clue
 
I’d hate it if Mowbray came back.
Why on earth would anyone want him back as manager?
A track record of successful management under difficult circumstances.
Never really had money to spend wherever he has been
Has bought some very good players for fer few quid

Was trying to think of a player who TM has paid more than 5 million for. - Cant think of one. Can you
 
A track record of successful management under difficult circumstances.
Never really had money to spend wherever he has been
Has bought some very good players for fer few quid

Was trying to think of a player who TM has paid more than 5 million for. - Cant think of one. Can you

Ben Brereton at Blackburn was £7m.
Sam Gallagher at Blackburn was £6m.

The Brereton one in particular looks like a huge waste of money, a striker who'd scored 9 goals in his career when they signed him, he'd added 2 goals in the 2 years since then.
He's had plenty of financial support at Blackburn since promotion.
 
A track record of successful management under difficult circumstances.
Never really had money to spend wherever he has been
Has bought some very good players for fer few quid

Was trying to think of a player who TM has paid more than 5 million for. - Cant think of one. Can you
Sam Gallagher for £6m at Blackburn from Southampton summer 2019. Will that do you?

Mowbray has worked with modest budgets at clubs going through financial hard times. He's bought some good value players as a result.
The bottom line is after a promising start at Hibs and West Brom he has done nothing of note in 500 matches since. He has had as many relegations as promotions in his career.
It appears he is on the verge of the sack at Blackburn and he is still talking in the ridiculous riddles he used to after matches here.

He undoubtedly steadied a sinking ship when he first came here and brought in some bargains.
He will always be a legendary figure at the club because of the Class of 86, but he has done absolutely nothing since leaving Boro to suggest he would be someone to turn to again.
 
Just in the interest of balance. How much would the club get for Dijksteel and Bola now they've established themselves as solid second-tier players? Or what about McNair? We'd surely make money on the £5m it cost to sign him from Sunderland. If Watmore continues his good form and we don't go up then clubs will be sniffing about. He was a very good free transfer.

Going back over the years, the club have squandered a lot of money on players that haven't worked out but this is a football-wide thing rather than something that is exclusive to Boro. As s_j_b said earlier, Arsenal spent around £70m on Pepe. Plus what will be an astronomical contract. The league is littered with players like Borja Baston at Swansea. Clubs don't do due diligence at times - because they're in need of a few wins, trying to replace a key player lost to injury or sale, trying to back a manager, 'showing ambition', etc. You see clubs wasting Premier League money left, right and centre. It is why overseas clubs are rubbing their hands together whenever an English club shows an interest in one of their players. It isn't just because they have more money to spend, it is often because they know English clubs will pay it without thinking properly. The next batch of Premier League money is always around the corner.

Bournemouth spent £15m on Jordon Ibe, Sheffield United spent something similar on replacing Henderson with Ramsdale. Bournemouth also made a massive profit on Nathan Ake and Sheffield United had a few years of picking up bargains like John Fleck. But they were risky deals in their own right too I suppose. It is just hit and miss, across the board.

I think sometimes we forget that pretty much every other club makes signings that don't work out, just like Boro. And Boro have also added a little bit of balance by bringing in quite a lot of money in sales since we came back down.
 
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Just in the interest of balance. How much would the club get for Dijksteel and Bola now they've established themselves as solid second-tier players? Or what about McNair? We'd surely make money on the £5m it cost to sign him from Sunderland. If Watmore continues his good form and we don't go up then clubs will be sniffing about. He was a very good free transfer.

Going back over the years, the club have squandered a lot of money on players that haven't worked out but this is a football-wide thing rather than something that is exclusive to Boro. As s_j_b said earlier, Arsenal spent around £70m on Pepe. Plus what will be an astronomical contract. The league is littered with players like Borja Baston at Swansea. Clubs don't do due diligence at times - because they're in need of a few wins, trying to replace a key player lost to injury or sale, trying to back a manager, 'showing ambition', etc. You see clubs wasting Premier League money left, right and centre. It is why overseas clubs are rubbing their hands together whenever an English club shows an interest in one of their players. It isn't just because they have more money to spend, it is often because they know English clubs will pay it without thinking properly. The next batch of Premier League money is always around the corner.

Bournemouth spent £15m on Jordon Ibe, Sheffield United spent something similar on replacing Henderson with Ramsdale. Bournemouth also made a massive profit on Nathan Ake and Sheffield United had a few years of picking up bargains like John Fleck. But they were risky deals in their own too I suppose. It is hit and miss.

I think sometimes we forget that pretty much every other club makes signings that don't work out, just like Boro. And Boro have also added a little bit of balance by bringing in quite a lot of money in sales since we came back down.
Our signings in the PL years were mixed and resulted in a big P&L hole, but at least they sustained PL football and our most successful years for decades.
There was no money to spend until Karanka and his signings were eventually recycled at their combined cost.

The real tomfoolery started with the appointment and support of Monk, allowing him to blow the proceeds of the Karanka era.
pulis talked about doing the job Mowbray actually did and yet blew another £20m plus loan fees on going nowhere.

Viv, we've already dropped tens of millions in transfer dealings on signings since 2017.
Guedioura -£4.7m.
Gestede -£6.4m.
Braithwaite - £4.5m.
Shotton -£2.9m.
Randolph -£0.8m.
Flint -£3.1m.
Assombolonga -£15.4m, Fletcher -£6.5m and Johnson -£2.4m are all out of contract in summer, nobody would buy any of these in January.
Howson is under contract, cost £5.1m and we would struggle to raise £3m for him in the summer given his age. He has been the pick of those buys by far.
I think we'd do well this summer to get a quarter of the £8m ridiculously blown on Saville (-£6m).
That is -£54.8m in fees for those 11 players, before agents fees and of course wages.

McNair is the one buy since Monk where the Club might make some decent profit, if sold now.
The profit we have made in recent years has been on Academy players notably Gibson; or on gambles like Traore and Bamford, or frees like Ramirez and Espinosa.

The Club I think have been burnt and changed course and in Dijksteel, Bola, Browne, Watmore and Fisher there looks to be real upside in value. There is also real value in Tavernier, Fry and Wood.

Of course Boro are not alone and the staggering incompetence at Stoke is even more incredible on PL monies. Bournemouth have indeed had their fingers burnt, as have the Geordies etc etc, but we did get things spectacularly wrong from Monk until Warnock arrived.
 
Ben Brereton at Blackburn was £7m.
Sam Gallagher at Blackburn was £6m.

The Brereton one in particular looks like a huge waste of money, a striker who'd scored 9 goals in his career when they signed him, he'd added 2 goals in the 2 years since then.
He's had plenty of financial support at Blackburn since promotion.
Mowbray's record with strikers here wasn't the best either.....£1m for both Jutkewicz and Kamara, plus he seemed to rate Ishmael Miller. I think the problem with Monk's spending was that we were like kids in the sweet shop with our parachute money.....most on here thought all the signings made sense based on their records, but then we aren't scouts or privy to what the plan was (if there was one!)
 
Mowbray's record with strikers here wasn't the best either.....£1m for both Jutkewicz and Kamara, plus he seemed to rate Ishmael Miller. I think the problem with Monk's spending was that we were like kids in the sweet shop with our parachute money.....most on here thought all the signings made sense based on their records, but then we aren't scouts or privy to what the plan was (if there was one!)
£50m should get you promoted from the championship imo

especially when you've got the likes of Gibson, Forshaw, Traore & Bamford to start off with. we missed out on a ton of quality championship talent and prem loan players that were exceptional for this level.

Rhodes £10m
Fisher £2.7m
Espinosa £4m
Husband £1m
Stuani £2.25m
Ramirez £5.5m
De Roon £12m

£37.45m

plus Negredo £100k a week, Valdes on ridiculous money
 
Mowbray's record with strikers here wasn't the best either.....£1m for both Jutkewicz and Kamara, plus he seemed to rate Ishmael Miller. I think the problem with Monk's spending was that we were like kids in the sweet shop with our parachute money.....most on here thought all the signings made sense based on their records, but then we aren't scouts or privy to what the plan was (if there was one!)
I thought the Britt signing was a massive risk, I expected goals from Howson and was excited by Braithwaite. Hey ho
 
£50m should get you promoted from the championship imo

especially when you've got the likes of Gibson, Forshaw, Traore & Bamford to start off with. we missed out on a ton of quality championship talent and prem loan players that were exceptional for this level.

Rhodes £10m
Fisher £2.7m
Espinosa £4m
Husband £1m
Stuani £2.25m
Ramirez £5.5m
De Roon £12m

£37.45m

plus Negredo £100k a week, Valdes on ridiculous money
If we had had a decent manager instead of Monk, and used Bamford instead of buying Britt, using that 15mill for a couple of wingers or number 10s we would have gone straight back up easily.
 
Now linked with Rhys Healey , at £5m , who went to Toulouse in August 2020 for a reported fee of £450th , and was reccomended to Boro prior to him going there .
We Chose to spend £2.7m on Chuba Akpom at the time .
 
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Ref - back to opening thread

Wages were generally too high in 2017 and we still have the legacy of that - both Pulis and Warnock have mentioned this - if Britt is on £40k/week and it was a 4 year contract that is a lot of money for a Championship player - OK one that had a good strike record, probably at least £15k a week more than he was one at Forest. I thought he was the right player to go for at the time because he was proven in the Championship and the right age.

Why should have to offer 50% premiums on average Championship wages for players to come to the Boro? I am sure the players are as well looked after at Boro as anywhere in the Championship and better than 50% of the clubs. If we do consider ourselves a top half team in the Championship (which we should) maybe a slightly above average Championship for key age players say aged 24 - 29 - the recent summer offers seem the right area say £12 to £15k/week for an average player of average age with a nice promotion bonus.

Our squad was too small in October - 22 players are required I think we had 19 - you have to budget for 6 players being not fully available and for some rest rotation by November. I suspect the high wage bill has reduced on a smaller squad with under 21s making up the squad when some are naturally not fully ready for the Championship. Wood was an example this season.
 
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