BoroMart
Well-known member
I've got fast fingers, or so I'm told
Warnock - 'a few things wrong at the club'
- Thread starter Ironops
- Start date
BoroMart
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Yeah Laws was 30k, Slaven was what 25k and Pears 60k I think. Pallister was something like 2k and a bag of old footballs and tracksuits, and I think everyone else in the 86 squad was free or from youths. So, even taking inflation into account the whole squad was less than 700k in todays money.
newyddion
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a lot of the stats are something that an experienced manager like warnock can just see by watching a player. there are certain stats that when compared together do show an indication of quality but none of them show attitude, mental stability, leadership etc etc
BoroMart
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Coaches are taught to look at the four corner model: Physical, Technical/Tactical, Psychological and Social.
You can look quantifiable data (Stats) to work the strengths & weaknesses, and you can quantify it, by example (edited video showing those strengths and weaknesses). Psychological and Social need a bit more digging through ex-teammates and coaches. But it isn't beyond the realms of possibility to create a data driven system, that then goes through a governance board to lift the stats up or down based on observation. The stats should be context driven and by deduction narrow down to a select set of players that can add value to a team.
It does help if you have a consistent footballing philosophy. When a club knee jerks through managers, it can take years to recover, unless the following manager believes in the same way of playing. It's why Woodgate might be a better fit for Bournemouth after Tindall and Howe, rather than taking over Boro after Pulis.
buffaloboro
Well-known member
It's true but it must be easier said than done to buy cheap sell high etcPulis said exactly the same. Then again he then went and spent 21mil and paid massive loan fees for Hugill and probably a few quid on Besic.
I think its been the recruitment and wage structure. We simply shouldn't be paying players 20-30k a week (+). It's not healthy for the club.
I think a lot stems back to Monk blowing over 50mil. We still have some of those players and they've probably restricted us in terms of transfers. They ain't good enough but no fecker can sign them as we pay so well.
To think we paid best part of 30mil for Braithwaite / Fletcher and Britt. We moved Braithwaite on for less than half and the others leave for nothing. It's hard to remember us consistently buying low and selling high (that the model you need).
We also saw Clayton / Ayala / George leave for nothing. Why didn't we cash in on them 18 months ago if we knew we couldn't match the current contracts? Again its simply because no fecker could pay them. Why would they leave?
Rudy left for nothing.... Again 6mil down the drain. Downing nothing.
We must be hemeraging cash. Just buy players for a fortune and let them leave for nothing. How much would we get for Saville? 1-2mil at best (didn't Warnock say he offered 2mil when at Cardiff? Why did we pay 7)
We have paid some frankly bizzare fees. The gaffer said the other week that Steve should have phoned him about a few players. He would have said 'don't touch with a barge pole'.... Interesting.
Also damming when he said 'Britts agent deserves a pat on the back'.
buffaloboro
Well-known member
All of these things are part of winning games as they set up the culture of the club. It's the same in any work place.
Even if the boss doesn't directly make decisions on them , he (the boss) tends to have a massive impact on how they are handled.
I've never worked at a place where it wasn't thus.
So, I would say that he does need to be mindful of all of these things.
Randy
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I'm only taking Callum Wilson out of that list.
Simply red
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Wilson when at Coventry
Austin when at Swindon
Bentley when at Southend
McCarthy when at Hamilton
McCarthur when at Hamilton
All when they were young and un proven
Randy
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Still only taking Wilson. Possibly Austin aswell, been young he wouldn't have the stupid yellow hair he does now.
Sheriff_John_Bunnell_ret
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We've probably been offered thousands of players for buttons. 99% of whom would be *****.
We've got a patchy record on transfers just like every other team. God knows how many millions teams like arsenal spend on *****. 70 million for Popeye or whatever he's called. Can barely do a stepover without falling on his ****.
We've got a patchy record on transfers just like every other team. God knows how many millions teams like arsenal spend on *****. 70 million for Popeye or whatever he's called. Can barely do a stepover without falling on his ****.
Jonny Ingbar
Well-known member
Yes, agree with that and it seems they have a great strategy in exploiting that strategy. It was more a reference to Warnock being slightly anti-stats, which is the opposite direction to most clubs these days.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Ref transfer fees - the record UK fee now is £85m? and in 1985 it was £1.6m? thats at least a 52 times uplift in fees so Pears who I think was £80k would be around £4.2m in today's money. In 1986 our record fee was £375k for Irving Nattress who we got nothing back on - he probably cost 60 times that in today's money = £22.5m lost. Buying and selling is always hit and miss. Everton will lose £25m transfer fee on Bolasie and get 29 games for that in 5 years.
There are some stretchings of the truth in some of the posts in this thread such as paying loan fees to Premier League clubs for players or players being disruptive or not quoting profits on sales e.g. Ramirez bought for free then sold for a decent fee 18 months later.
I do think overall since Jan 2017 our dealings have been poor compared with the average and there is room for improvement. I do think its more difficult to attract players to the North (that have never been), other clubs have mentioned problems, but also the club has under sold itself a bit. You can see this in the words that Warnock uses at times when talking about the Club. I also think internal communication appears not the best at the club and some of the people involved don't seem to be close, so the manager is not sure what is happening in key transfer dealings from day to day. There are also hints it can even happen with the medical staff and the football management team. Maybe a dashbaord or electronic diary could be updated daily between key staff if they can't speak face to face, so there are no surprises. Key staff meet up for a evening meal together in private room at Rockcliffe etc and have some discussions afterwards.
The pitch at the Riverside needs improving, its not as good as it looks and maybe it can be used for some training sessions so it feels more like home when it is improved.
Boro_Legend
Well-known member
From his interview I felt he was saying if he can inspire the lads to go on a run till the end of the season and get in or close to the playoffs he would be willing to stay to give it go next year, if not he is off. I don't think he feels its worth staying if we aren't going to challenge.
BoroMart
Well-known member
You can't compare record transfer fees, as the base for inflation. This was prior to the champions league, and premier league. The inflation rate for the top 6 teams is that high, for the rest of football it's much smaller.
nowthen
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Didn’t help in Mowbray’s last year.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
BM - transfer fees are massively higher - Britt was £15m he has never played in the Premier League to my knowledge. Pre Covid all transfer fee are miles higher than in 1985. Even in Covid days Brentford paid £10m for Toney a Division 1 player.
Our 1985 buys look very cheap today but they were not very cheap at the time especailly when all added up:
My fee guesses from memory
Pears £80k - excellent buy
O`Riordan £50k - failure
Rowell £50k - limited value
Laws £30k - good buy
Stephens £20k - Good in old Division 3, but not in Div 2
Slaven £25k - excellent buy
Heard £30k - failure
Cook £25k - failure
Alf Duffield put the money up - but we found out later it was only a loan to the club and he demanded his money back in 1986 which pushed the club into Administration. Total debts were only around £1m.
I was surprised we struggled as badly as we did in 1985/6 - all those buys were in the relegated team in 1986 - probably a total spend of around £15.5m in today fees. (50 times £310k)
Its interesting how we forget the poor buys of 1985 but remember the good ones - a bit like the summers were always warmer and sunny in our childhood.
Our 1985 buys look very cheap today but they were not very cheap at the time especailly when all added up:
My fee guesses from memory
Pears £80k - excellent buy
O`Riordan £50k - failure
Rowell £50k - limited value
Laws £30k - good buy
Stephens £20k - Good in old Division 3, but not in Div 2
Slaven £25k - excellent buy
Heard £30k - failure
Cook £25k - failure
Alf Duffield put the money up - but we found out later it was only a loan to the club and he demanded his money back in 1986 which pushed the club into Administration. Total debts were only around £1m.
I was surprised we struggled as badly as we did in 1985/6 - all those buys were in the relegated team in 1986 - probably a total spend of around £15.5m in today fees. (50 times £310k)
Its interesting how we forget the poor buys of 1985 but remember the good ones - a bit like the summers were always warmer and sunny in our childhood.
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Cosmonaut
Well-known member
Not even got through this whole thread now but this is exactly my feeling too. We seemed to place trust in Pulis to get things in order' but once he'd gone, nothing appeared to have changed and we're left with the same mess. He was warming the seat for Woodgate and that period was nothing short of a disaster, can only imagine what it was like behind the scenes though I will give him credit, we brought in a couple of players who Warnock has got performing, the likes of Dijksteel, Bola.
The way we have operated in terms of scouting/bringing in players has been woeful for far too long now. NW will clearly see this but whether that is something he is able to change and set us on path to do better remains to be seen.
Do folk reckon it could have an impact on whether he hangs on for another season?? I dread to think of who else would come in if NW decided come end of this season, that he's done what he can with what he had and would rather not continue given how things are operating behind the scenes at the club.
Just speculating, of course ... but I do worry and have been waiting a long time now like everyone else for us to get a decent system in order in terms of bringing players in and the managing of finances .. of course, Covid hasn't helped, and come to the Summer window, it's still going to be difficult getting what we want if NW decides to hang around. We're seeing teams all over in this league with more nous than us when it comes to bringing in players from the lower tiers and unearthing a 'gem' here and there ... I can't think of much we've done at all since relegation under Karanka from the PL apart from most recently, Watmore and giving him a chance! Thank God we managed that because he's been a gem for us recently without a doubt and kept us from dropping further down the league.
I dread to think of what would happen with the players we have currently, should a new manager come in if NW decides to leave at the end of this campaign. I don't trust the club currently, to make the right decision and it's fortunate NW answered the phone to help keep us up last season and got the appetite to stick around and give it a go.
Being realistic NW knew with the players he taken over from JW that this season, a top-six finish would be ambitious putting it mildly, unless he got the backing he wanted before the season started. I get the impression he was given a few promises and let down on more than one occasion.
I'm just leaving my thoughts having seen the thread title, things seem a little rough at the moment but I'm glad we still managed the three points last night. Just irritating it come at a cost and we've now lost McNair after the red card.
I hope we manage to stick together and grind out another couple of wins after last night and who knows where that might take us in the table, if we can do it. It's what is going on behind the scenes at the club I always worry about. Our scouting has been gash for too long now, managers in the past given too much money to waste on dross. If only NW was around at the time of Monk/Pulis .. perhaps we wouldn't be having this conversation now.
Hope I'm wrong and things get better. I just hope NW sticks around to build this squad into a real Championship-winning/auto position side.
Redwurzel
Well-known member
Monk's signings were significantly worse than Pulis for me. Over paying for Britt, Fletch, Braithwaite and Shotton - Baker not good enough. Howson, Randolph, Johnson and ROI full back (sorry forgotten his name) were OK. Monk particularly failed to get the best from his signings.
The Pulis buys looked solid Championship players when bought, OK he over paid for Saville and Flint. Saville is sound at Championship level. Flint did go backwards. Hugill is doing OK at Norwich, Besic helped us get into the 2018 play offs. McNair is one of our better players and does well for NI. Selling Bamford was a mistake and not taking Harrison back on loan in the Summer of 2018 was another mistake. However Pulis did bring in quite a bit more cash than he spent. Gibson £15m, Traore £20m (with adds ons) Bamford £10m (with add ons).
The Pulis buys looked solid Championship players when bought, OK he over paid for Saville and Flint. Saville is sound at Championship level. Flint did go backwards. Hugill is doing OK at Norwich, Besic helped us get into the 2018 play offs. McNair is one of our better players and does well for NI. Selling Bamford was a mistake and not taking Harrison back on loan in the Summer of 2018 was another mistake. However Pulis did bring in quite a bit more cash than he spent. Gibson £15m, Traore £20m (with adds ons) Bamford £10m (with add ons).
Cosmonaut
Well-known member
All bang on. The way we overpaid for so many players during the Monk/Pulis times was embarrassing in a way (particularly Monk's with the likes of Johnson's fee etc). Not sure what went on behind the scenes with Monk. I remember initially, I was happy with that appointment and thought he was the guy we should go for. How wrong I turned out to be .. a lot of money spent and nothing achieved on the pitch to reflect the money we'd waxed on all these players .. he was gone in a shot, I'm not 'ITK' but I remember it being unlike Gibbo to let a manager go so quickly .. anyway it's in the past
Pulis came in and mentioned something along the lines of having a 'look around' the club and getting things fixed and in order, I had confidence a man of his experience, etc, he was going to do so. He did indeed overpay for Savile and Flint. Flint was a complete flop, expected big things from him. Besic was a good player, and looking at Bamford and Harrison at Leeds now just shows how wrong we were getting it. They were never going to fit in I guess with Pulis-ball .. we did finish that 2018 season in a play-off position, but I remember feeling so negative or lack of excitement for the occasion. It felt like we were already beaten and out of them before they even started. Such a weird time. Perhaps that was just me. Apologies if so for being so mizzo! However, once Pulis left the building, we seemed to still be stuck in the same position with little improvement. Woodgate comes in, and we were lucky not to drop out of the league. Dread to think of what it would have been like battling in League One.
Bad decision after another and not until NW came in, I felt things may start to improve and especially behind the scenes, not just on the pitch. I was gutted when we sold Bamford when Pulis was here, but I'm glad to see how well he is doing in the PL now, showing he has the ability to play at that level when used correctly!! What an absolute waste. What I'd do to have him in our side now
I hope NW stays on and shakes things up, gets the club in order. Then we can have a proper go at it next season.
jonny_greenings_sock
Well-known member
I would say the main thing wrong at the club at the minute, and what Warnock’s probably hinting at, are the last few big money contracts from the Monk spending spree hangover. We know we overpaid on fees and wages and didn’t get value, and those massive contracts drag the club down.
The last few expire this summer though.
On recruitment, would also add that on Feb 1st I read quite a few comments on here that it was our best transfer window in 10 years.
The last few expire this summer though.
On recruitment, would also add that on Feb 1st I read quite a few comments on here that it was our best transfer window in 10 years.