Warnock - 'a few things wrong at the club'

atomicloonybin aka ALB said:
Guedioura is a very strange one. Clearly he was a Karanka project because he snapped him up for Forest when we let him go, and he played 38 games, 2 goals in a season and a bit for them which you'd take from Jonny Howson. I assume Agnew basically told him to b***r off.

The end of this season should see us finally flush the toilet on the Monk experiment. Britt and Fletcher will surely go for nothing, unless they take immense pay cuts. That's wehere we're at - we can't get any return on either of them. I wouldn't know who the highest paid player would be then - McNair, Saville? I assume that will not make that much difference though. If we were bounding along at the top of an economic wave it would free the money up to do something else with, but I think it'll likely just go back into the running costs in these days.

We could do with a year in the Prem but not spend any money whatsoever. Certainly don't waste it on the likes of Viktor Fischer. Balance the books and start again.
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He's has such an injury ravaged two years I could see Fletcher staying on a smaller contract to try and prove some points to himself and others. I doubt he would be able to secure a move to a club with better prospects than us at the moment?
 
Laughing said:
Karanka probably should have been supported by the club, not financially, but to find the balance he needed to be able to do his job. If required get someone else in he trusts to do the micro managing.

Southgate ... Not sure about the wisdom of sacking him the year before...
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I agree with the comments on Karanka. He needed, like Woodgate did, a wise old head to bounce ideas off, provide some sage advice & be a bit of a pressure release having been there seen it & done it.

Don't disagree about not sacking Southgate being the right idea, at the time I just felt we were drifting out of the league and we needed to jolt the club & players to try and get that dead cat bounce and get a couple of wins in the last few games that would've seen us safe.
 
I think the chairman and the scouting team need to take responsibility. They have failed together.

We have overpaid at times, but we have also missed out on some cheap young signings due to balking at the price of talented young players. We were interested in Vardy but balked at the price for a non-league player....does it matter where he came from if he has that much talent? We balked at an extra 500k for Harry Maguire, we tried to signed Lindeloft for a fraction of what Man Utd paid a year later. We identified Ivan Toney two years ago, and probably new about him long before that with him coming through the Jawdee academy. We wanted Bartley and Romain Sawyers who are now prem players, but we had the chance of signing long before that and again balked at the price.

Yes some of the players we end up signing are just rank bad scouting, but some are third or sixth choice because we won't put hte money up on very good players before they make it, even though the scouts identify them.
 
karanka brought a fresh dimension and the crowd loved the promotion season... pear shape in the premier playing for 0-0 and hoping to sneak a goal....
 
alanmoodysdog said:
karanka brought a fresh dimension and the crowd loved the promotion season... pear shape in the premier playing for 0-0 and hoping to sneak a goal....
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We ballsed up the prem money big time too.
- Negrado would have been money well spent for a season if we stayed up. But as we went down it was money down the pan.
- Barragan was below average and at 28 the wrong age to make profit
- Ramirez could have been a great signing but ended up screwing us over
- Guzan was supposed to add a bit of experience but ended up a waste
- Valdez was supposed to be star quality, and wasn't bad, but past his best and expensive and divisive
- Fabio, 2mill and sold at a small profit was ok
- Gestede was 28 and past his best
- ditto Guedioura
- Bamford was still fairly young and could have been the player to get us back up but the next two managers didn't trust him (that's what happens when you change manager regularly, you end up losing good players who don't fit the system)
- Fischer, never really got a run of games, has done well back in Denmark
- De Roon - decent signing and had a great career with Atalanta and Holland
- bernardo was never fully fit
- Traore was a project and ended up a gem that made us 10mill profit.

Is that everyone? Too much spent on older players, the ones that were a success were Traore, De Roon and Bamford (to a degree), all fairly young with something to prove.The old heads were there for the pension fund.

We need to play the market better than this, we chucked 150mill away over 2 years in the prem and back in the championship. We only survived financially because of selling De Roon, Bamford, Gibson, Ramirez and Traore. The model needs to change. Buy young and talented, even if you pay over the odds-ish. 7mill on Traore became 11mill profit and a year of great performances. It can be done.
 
alanmoodysdog said:
karanka brought a fresh dimension and the crowd loved the promotion season... pear shape in the premier playing for 0-0 and hoping to sneak a goal....
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We had an amazing team spirit that pushed us to promotion (culminating in the scenes at the dickens) , only for him to rip this up and fill it full of mercenaries and less than committed players.

madness really
 
Teesside_Steel said:
Warnock said a while back that he was shown defensive targets who just can’t defend. It was all based on stats.

Wages should be getting better, especially once Brit leaves, but the damage will take some repair.
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But then the Brentford model has been lauded time and again on here and that's entirely stats driven.

I think whatever the club does some use it as stick to beat them with it.

If we lose a player to another club, it's Bauser's fault, if we design a player, it's often a case people think we've paid too much.

Woodgate actually had the right philosophy, albeit it was almost certainly forced on him, in that we look to recruit from the lower leagues. Problem is we are competing against dozens of other clubs.

The foreign market is higher risk, but higher reward.

We probably need a mix of all approaches, it's never an exact science.
 
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People talk about Britt being on £40k per week like they’ve seen his contract. Has this been confirmed anywhere or are people just passing off rumour as fact? It’s the same with other players too. People do calculations of fees and wages for multiple players without knowing either.
 
BoroMart said:
We ballsed up the prem money big time too.
- Negrado would have been money well spent for a season if we stayed up. But as we went down it was money down the pan.
- Barragan was below average and at 28 the wrong age to make profit
- Ramirez could have been a great signing but ended up screwing us over
- Guzan was supposed to add a bit of experience but ended up a waste
- Valdez was supposed to be star quality, and wasn't bad, but past his best and expensive and divisive
- Fabio, 2mill and sold at a small profit was ok
- Gestede was 28 and past his best
- ditto Guedioura
- Bamford was still fairly young and could have been the player to get us back up but the next two managers didn't trust him (that's what happens when you change manager regularly, you end up losing good players who don't fit the system)
- Fischer, never really got a run of games, has done well back in Denmark
- De Roon - decent signing and had a great career with Atalanta and Holland
- bernardo was never fully fit
- Traore was a project and ended up a gem that made us 10mill profit.

Is that everyone? Too much spent on older players, the ones that were a success were Traore, De Roon and Bamford (to a degree), all fairly young with something to prove.The old heads were there for the pension fund.

We need to play the market better than this, we chucked 150mill away over 2 years in the prem and back in the championship. We only survived financially because of selling De Roon, Bamford, Gibson, Ramirez and Traore. The model needs to change. Buy young and talented, even if you pay over the odds-ish. 7mill on Traore became 11mill profit and a year of great performances. It can be done.
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Ruddy Nora Marty, I've never seen you type so much....

I've put you forward for job in the typing pool Ahahaha
 
We
BoroMart said:
We ballsed up the prem money big time too.
- Negrado would have been money well spent for a season if we stayed up. But as we went down it was money down the pan.
- Barragan was below average and at 28 the wrong age to make profit
- Ramirez could have been a great signing but ended up screwing us over
- Guzan was supposed to add a bit of experience but ended up a waste
- Valdez was supposed to be star quality, and wasn't bad, but past his best and expensive and divisive
- Fabio, 2mill and sold at a small profit was ok
- Gestede was 28 and past his best
- ditto Guedioura
- Bamford was still fairly young and could have been the player to get us back up but the next two managers didn't trust him (that's what happens when you change manager regularly, you end up losing good players who don't fit the system)
- Fischer, never really got a run of games, has done well back in Denmark
- De Roon - decent signing and had a great career with Atalanta and Holland
- bernardo was never fully fit
- Traore was a project and ended up a gem that made us 10mill profit.

Is that everyone? Too much spent on older players, the ones that were a success were Traore, De Roon and Bamford (to a degree), all fairly young with something to prove.The old heads were there for the pension fund.

We need to play the market better than this, we chucked 150mill away over 2 years in the prem and back in the championship. We only survived financially because of selling De Roon, Bamford, Gibson, Ramirez and Traore. The model needs to change. Buy young and talented, even if you pay over the odds-ish. 7mill on Traore became 11mill profit and a year of great performances. It can be done.
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We were reccomended
James McCarthy at £1m
James McArthur at £1m
Dan Bentley £1m or less
Charlie Austin at £1m
Callum Wilson at £1.2m
 
festa5 said:
Plenty of other clubs in the same boat though. Most northern clubs probably.

I'd suggest we're actually a more attractive proposition than a lot of our northern rivals. The training facilities must be a big draw and if players want a big city they can and do live somewhere within striking distance of Leeds or Newcastle.

There's maybe a bit of a stereotype to overcome and we do have a disadvantage over southern and particularly London clubs.

But I also think too much is made of "no-one wants to come to Middlesbrough". Convenient excuse for the club at times.
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Yeh I'd say most northern clubs are in the same boat, which is kind of my point. If we use the example of Britt, Burnley who were premier league were also after him, all things being equal he joins the premier league team, but maybe doesn't play so much. To ensure you get him though you end up paying him more than burnley are willing to pay in wages and in transfer fee. You get your player but you've had to pay extra due to the circumstances we find ourselves in compared to other clubs interested.

I'd agree that now we're working in a different way and with a different budget we're having to be smarter and can't just go and offer more money to get the player that we want. I'm sure the likes of Bola picked us over cardiff due to the training ground, location etc rather than the wages we were offering, but inevitably it makes the pool of players available smaller.

As I said above though, moving to that model takes some adapting and I think we're still struggling with that a bit. I also think Warnock probably thinks we used to be able to get all these players, looked like a big draw and now we're struggling. I'd say that is down to the fact that rather than just offering more cash to get the player we want we are having to rely more on promoting the location, training facilities, things like that, but if you're after one of the better players in the league who a few clubs are after I think money talks more than facilities and being 60 and 50 miles from leeds or newcastle.
 
Are we going to be bemoaning Warnocks signings in a couple of years time? Say if Akpom doesn't get any better and Watmore gets injured again etc?
 
Akpom seems to get worse and worse every time you see him play. Morsy is a bit hit and miss and although the keeper did okay yesterday, doesn’t fill me with loads of confidence.
 
Thing is recruitment is not an exact science. You just cant recruit a player cheaply who is then guaranteed to go on to be brilliant! It is always going to eb hit and miss although tbf we seem to get more misses than other teams
 
Jonny Ingbar said:
But then the Brentford model has been lauded time and again on here and that's entirely stats driven.
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You have to know how to process stats properly. For instance, the defenders in a poor team will have lots of clearances to their name.....it doesn't mean they are the best at clearances, it means they are in a poor team that has lots of defending to do. A single stat on it's own isn't much use, it needs the context of other data and knowledge (acquired from scouting with your eyes).
 
newyddion said:
The best decisions transfer wise were made under Tony Mowbray. I think the biggest successes under Karanka came from the Chelsea loan players. Into the prem we made some massive errors. Too many gambles, too many short term gains. Then of course under Monk with the league smashing £50m money burning exercise.. Tony Pulis continuing the wasteful spending. Bola, Ditksteel & Browne were a step in the right direction. Under Warnock it’s only really been missing out on a decent striker.
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For me I think the best were under Willie Maddren, Pears, Pallister, Laws, Slaven, Stephens, Rowell,
 
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