What is a Woman
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Steer
Well-known member
Surely people performing sex acts in front of minors and getting their bits out is inappropriate no matter what sex, orientation or gender? Unless you disagree of course, but perhaps you might want to reword your question?
Ste43
Active member
no you are spot on thanks Steer, it shouldn't happen in any circumstance...
It was in relation to some widespread images/videos I had seen where those involved were LGBTQI+
and as part of Pride events, so was relevant to the post...
I have not seen any events where this happens that are not LGBTQI+, I absolutely stand to be corrected though
The rhetoric cannot be the same unless sexuality, race and gender are conflated together. The rhetoric of 2023 also linguistically did not exist in the 50's, 60 and indeed till the 2000's. The trans of 2023 is not the trans of decades in the last century. The trans term has become a umbrella of varying meanings.
There are sadly famous cases of rapists who identify as women, including those who start identifying as transgender when they enter prison.
The Ruthsayer
Well-known member
Ordinarily yes. However, even as I age my memory remains excellent and I recall challenging another poster to give me examples of incidents where 'Fair Play for Women' or their ilk had attacked transactivists. This poster had boldly stated that there was an equal amount of intimidation an violence on both sides of this discussion.
Not so.
1finny
Well-known member
If you want an easy start - watch last nights episode of Extraordinary Escapes with Sandi Toksvig - where Suzy Izzard shares her experience.
Muttley
Well-known member
I'm aware of ONE such case. The one in Scotland where the rapist DIDN'T go to a Women's Prison.
This is what confirmation bias does.
Anywho. I'm out on this topic. I'm not an expert but I recognise when an issue (and there are issues that need addressing) is being used to deflect from wider, more serious problems and engender fear for political gain. Crack on.
ThePrisoner
Well-known member
Transphobia won't become a significant political issue in the UK. For one thing, the right here has been trying to stoke it for several years now, with no success as there is no large existing target audience. For another, transphobia in the US is entwined with religious fundamentalist bigotry, which does not exist at any scale in the UK.
TheYorkshireTerrier
Well-known member
Exactly. I'm not sure what the OP is trying to get out of this thread/forum, why not actually speak to people who are in that community and have suffered abuse for just wanting to live their lives how they want to?
And as for the 'but when they activists teachers and doctors!!!' comment, how many of these do you actually know, or do you just see one or two of them on Twitter? The trans community is such a small percentage of society, never mind the activists among them, I really don't think they are infiltrating schools and hospitals like you seem to be so concerned about.
There is the case of Karen White. A man who was also called David and Stephen. A rapist who assumed a trans identity when he entered the prison estate. Mr White was transferred to the female estate as he was allegedly transitioning, where he proceeded to sexually assault female inmates.
According to Ministry of Justice stats Karen White is not the only male, and only males can physically rape rapist who has been housed in the female prison estate.
I am unsure of the point about political gain. Transgender politics are generally a politics of the left, not all the left, and we on the left can very frequently not share the same world view.
The Ruthsayer
Well-known member
I disagree. This is not the politics of division. Protecting the safety of women and the integrity of women's sport should not be about attracting votes.
I am a support worker working in learning disability and mental health services. I am also a football coach. Protecting the vulnerable in society should be of paramount importance to all of society.
The quest for self ID would undermine the equalities act, and societies sex based safeguarding of the vulnerable.
Our understanding of law, of safeguarding is defined by knowing what a female (woman) is. Self ID would alter that understanding and safeguarding policy across singe sex spaces, from care to sport to refuges etc.
Johnny Vincents Motorbike
Well-known member
The people you dont agree with you call them 'Nutters' - have some dignity and respect, stop calling people such derogatory names, based on your perception of their mental health.
The Ruthsayer
Well-known member
You probably won’t read this if you’ve opted out, but I agree with your final paragraph. There is a genuine danger that the critical issues will be obscured by those whose primarily concern is not the protection of women. I did highlight these concerns several months ago; the hijacking of this issue by the right.
changingman
Well-known member
That only works if you believe that is the government's true intention here. I for one strongly do not. By all means, an informed and nuanced debate on the subject is to be welcomed but that is not what is being pushed by the right in this instance. it's the fear (and blame) of "others". See also refugees.
The Ruthsayer
Well-known member
Agreed. That’s why I used ‘should’, rather than ‘is’. (Or the conditional tense for you grammarians).
Chutney
Well-known member
This is a really difficult subject, made all the more so by the behaviour of some of the most voluble participants in the debate.
My best friend was a trans woman, who unfortunately died a couple of years ago. I'd known him for close to 30 years, and her for a couple of years before she died. As a friend he was someone I agreed with on more than I didn't, so when he became she, I would generally accept her position on a lot of the points that get brought up for debate here. That said, the discussion at the time wasn't anything close to as broad and polarising as it is now.
Conversely, my wife who is a tolerant and left leaning woman is exceedingly concerned by the impact of self ID and related issues on women's rights, and when she explains her position to me it makes total sense, and a lot more sense than people who argue that, for example, trans women can menstruate. She happily admits that she qualifies for the term TERF, although it's fair to say that's a group with an incredibly low entry bar. She'll jokingly refer to herself as a "hateful bigot" knowing fine well that she's far from it. Safeguarding and equality for biological women are her biggest goals here.
I think what makes this a particularly unusual topic is that the traditional battle lines don't really exist here. Left leaning feminists find themselves aligned with right wing hatemongers, left wing firebrands tout the same lines as proud misogynists. There's plenty sticking their oar in who happen to be both transphobic AND misogynist, they just happen to be more transphobic, so for now they'll pretend to be champions of women's rights.
My own position now is definitely with women and their rights, but there's different routes to come to that conclusion and I'll not countenance any accusations of transphobia towards myself.
Will now don a crash helmet and try not to get dragged into this.
My best friend was a trans woman, who unfortunately died a couple of years ago. I'd known him for close to 30 years, and her for a couple of years before she died. As a friend he was someone I agreed with on more than I didn't, so when he became she, I would generally accept her position on a lot of the points that get brought up for debate here. That said, the discussion at the time wasn't anything close to as broad and polarising as it is now.
Conversely, my wife who is a tolerant and left leaning woman is exceedingly concerned by the impact of self ID and related issues on women's rights, and when she explains her position to me it makes total sense, and a lot more sense than people who argue that, for example, trans women can menstruate. She happily admits that she qualifies for the term TERF, although it's fair to say that's a group with an incredibly low entry bar. She'll jokingly refer to herself as a "hateful bigot" knowing fine well that she's far from it. Safeguarding and equality for biological women are her biggest goals here.
I think what makes this a particularly unusual topic is that the traditional battle lines don't really exist here. Left leaning feminists find themselves aligned with right wing hatemongers, left wing firebrands tout the same lines as proud misogynists. There's plenty sticking their oar in who happen to be both transphobic AND misogynist, they just happen to be more transphobic, so for now they'll pretend to be champions of women's rights.
My own position now is definitely with women and their rights, but there's different routes to come to that conclusion and I'll not countenance any accusations of transphobia towards myself.
Will now don a crash helmet and try not to get dragged into this.
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LaPennaBianca
Well-known member
Are we using Dr Phil as the yardstick for quality now?
Another thing this man (Matt Walsh) has said:
"a union between two homosexuals is not, never has been, and never will be a legitimate marriage"
All from a 'cursory search'. I will leave it to other posters to decide whether this man's questioning trans people's right to exist is in good faith.
Johnnyweetabix
Well-known member
I thought this thread was going to be about Swiss Toni…. Apparently not
The Ruthsayer
Well-known member
Thoughtful and articulate Chutney. The position of your partner mirrors mine very closely. Ms Ruthsayer has spent decades volunteering for CAB, MIND, Samaritans on tough front line roles, often working 40 hours per week, but she is deeply unsettled by this issue. And to exemplify the politicisation you allude to above, she will not countenance voting Labour (or Green) given Starmer’s inability to articulate what a woman is.
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