Would you keep any of the loan players?

I would offer Ayling a one year deal. That does depend on his wages. I imagine he's been on a few quid at Leeds.

I think he brings a wealth of experience. It would also suit both parties as he's 'local'. I think both him and Smith can do a job at RB. That said clearly neither are longterm options. Yet could fill the role until we sign one.

Ayling has vastly improved over the last month. It's easy to forget he'd hardly had a kick before joining us. So to be thrown straight in with 13 successive starts was always going to take time to get up to speed.

It's clearly not that easy to just say 'we can sign a younger or better RB' . Just look at how many LBs we've had. Ayling and Smith can fill in until we find one.

That's it though. The loans have been pretty poor this season. Greenwood started well but massively disappointed since Xmas. Thomas has to be the most bizzare. Absolutely woeful. Apparently we've been after him for a few seasons. Think we'll put that down to a dodged bullet.
 
Colin Warnek said:
For me none.

Ayling - No - he's good but with Smith to return, surely we're better off signing a young RB. Let Dijksteel go as well, he's been a good servant but too injury prone.

Greenwood - No - great start but has badly regressed. Don't want to watch him stroll around in a red shirt any more.

O'Brien - No - he is very hit and miss. Sometimes shows good pace and work rate but then passes straight to the opposition.

Thomas - No - shown nothing to say he's better than Engel, which is not the highest bar either.

That's 4 off the wage bill straight away.
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No - none have really impressed consistently enough to warrant being made permanent in my opinion
 
I would barely keep any players if I'm honest. We should be looking at building at least half a side that would compete at the lower-mid PL level and that's not where we are.
 
None, which is a shame as I thought Greenwood was looking a great deal. The only way he remains is if Boro can’t line up a better deal for another player.

Like Ayling and I’d be tempted for his experience and personality, but it depends on the financial aspects.

O’Brien. Expected big things but he’s been a bit hit and miss.

Thomas - absolutely not.
 
Ayling if Smith doesn't look like he's recovering. Bear in mind that Ayling is only 10 months older than Smith.
O'Brien. Maybe if he has a good end to the season. If Forest are relegated he will likely be on a pay cut and even if not, I think he's going to be on bottom end Prem wages so it might be possible to do a deal. I don't think we would have loaned him unless we thought a post-loan deal was possible.
Greenwood. No. Leeds getting promoted will make it a non-starter anyway.
Thomas. No.
Bottom line is that even if we don't re-sign any of them, we won't miss them.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
I wouldn’t keep any of them. 10th in the second division and promotion out of the equation before Easter, there’s only a handful of players I’d be sad to see depart to be honest.

Dieng, Rav, Clarke, Hackney, Howson, Jones, Coburn, Latte Lath.

I like Forss, McGree and Lenihan but they’ve barely played this season. Same for Smith. Dijksteel is injury prone. Barlaser only does it in bursts. Silvera is young and pretty hit and miss. Engel is a strange one, he’d benefit from a disciplined or better quality player in front of him. Bangura we’ve barely seen, same for Gilbert. McNair has spent large swathes of the season injured, as has Fry.

The loan players have been very, very poor across the piece. O’Brien has been unfortunate with his injury to be fair. Greenwood, Ayling, Thomas? Is there any point in spending money on these players again next season? I don’t think so.

There’s too many injuries and too many out of form players. I’d wager that if we were in the top six looking up like we were this time left year then quite a few of these injuries wouldn’t be happening and players would be itching to play. I think some of them are shirking responsibilities tbh. There is something not right.
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Fair play Viv.
You said you would wait to season end and give everyone a fair go.
You have.
I am obviously not surprised at your current assessment.

I'll be honest and say I don't really, really care about any of the players staying - and I'm not just talking about the loanees.

I would like Dieng, VdB, Hackney, Forss to stay, but not anything like in the way I felt about Akpom.
I'd be happy enough with Fry, McNair, Howson, I Jones, Coburn and Latte Lath as squad players who could play as decent first team cover, but none of them are top of the championship players.

I think McGree will go and he has ability, so will be a miss.
I also think Dijksteel and Jones (GK) will move on.
(If Hackney or VdB go then we really do have huge holes).

I'd love clubs to come in for Glover, Smith, Engel, Coulson, Clarke, Lenihan, Barlaser, Silvera, Hoppe, but sadly they won't. They are miles off being promotion performers, miles.
Gilbert, Bangura and Azaz are 3 more I'd not be at all bothered about if they moved on.
The 4 loanees have ripped up nothing but potential contracts here.
I would not sign Ayling, Thomas, O'Brien or Greenwood for what they would cost in fees and wages.

We are where we should be given the quality of the squad.
It is a massive squad of decidedly average players. If we don't address that with recruitment of real quality through the team, then we will stay where we are at best.
 
I think each potential deal comes with different considerations.

Ayling is out of contract, adds leadership and experience and his package would be modest, despite what he might be earning now.

Bringing in a younger player would cost probably more overall.

Greenwood had talent, but had been wildly inconsistent. On a free he might be worth a deal, but not at the £1.5m included in the loan contract. Not even close.

O'Brien on a free, or for a very small fee, would be worth considering, but not at anything like what Forest will look for, which is expect to be (at the very least) £2m+.

Thomas has not done anywhere near enough to even consider a permanent deal.
 
Nah, perhaps it’s because the loan players we had last season were so good it’s been difficult for them to live up to it, but I don’t particularly rate any of them.

I can see us signing Ayling mind.
 
One thought on O’Brien is that he came back from his injury very well so it shows he knows his body. Moreover he definitely filled in for Howson in the middle and although he was kind of MIA for the first 20 or so minutes v Soton, he came on strong later on, which shows he has a (really) good engine. Personally I think we should sign him due to his versatility and how quickly he can lead the team on the counter.

As for Ayling, I’m ok with him tbh as it seems Djksteel doesn’t offer the same kind of intensity and defensive leadership. Tommy Smith will take at least another 4-5 months in rehab and there’s no guarantee he’ll come back and be able to play on a weekly basis.

As for the others, they’re too inconsistent but all loaners probably have the same issue. O’Brien has shown the ability to fight against adversity and become part of the starting 11.
 
Ayling - maybe but if Smith is back then we have two players that are very similar?

Greenwood - after a good start, he has offered nothing much for a long time. He's still young and is the sort of player that we have been looking at. But as discussed elsewhere if Leeds go up his wages are going to be prohibitive, so another loan would be he only way.

O'Brien - out of the 4, he is the one I would be most happy for us to sign, but not too disappointed if we didn't.

Thomas. Apparently he is a Premiership footballer, and has won an FA cup. He makes Engel look like a world beater. I thought he was going to walk into the team, but he is nowhere near good enough. Strange.
 
indeedido said:
Fair play Viv.
You said you would wait to season end and give everyone a fair go.
You have.
I am obviously not surprised at your current assessment.

I'll be honest and say I don't really, really care about any of the players staying - and I'm not just talking about the loanees.

I would like Dieng, VdB, Hackney, Forss to stay, but not anything like in the way I felt about Akpom.
I'd be happy enough with Fry, McNair, Howson, I Jones, Coburn and Latte Lath as squad players who could play as decent first team cover, but none of them are top of the championship players.

I think McGree will go and he has ability, so will be a miss.
I also think Dijksteel and Jones (GK) will move on.
(If Hackney or VdB go then we really do have huge holes).

I'd love clubs to come in for Glover, Smith, Engel, Coulson, Clarke, Lenihan, Barlaser, Silvera, Hoppe, but sadly they won't. They are miles off being promotion performers, miles.
Gilbert, Bangura and Azaz are 3 more I'd not be at all bothered about if they moved on.
The 4 loanees have ripped up nothing but potential contracts here.
I would not sign Ayling, Thomas, O'Brien or Greenwood for what they would cost in fees and wages.

We are where we should be given the quality of the squad.
It is a massive squad of decidedly average players. If we don't address that with recruitment of real quality through the team, then we will stay where we are at best.
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I think I after the Blackburn game that my mind was sort of made up on where we are. We put 3 wins together and got ourselves back in the hunt for the top six with a handful of injured players starting to come back, and then delivered that performance against Blackburn and you just run out of patience with some of them.

I do take into account the injuries. It’s been absolutely insane, how many we’ve had. But I’ve always thought players are more likely to miss matches when results aren’t great.

For example, I watched quite a lot of Maidstone United when they won National League South in 2021/22. The team picked itself. Barely anyone ever missed a match as they exceeded all expectations and won the title. The next season they struggled to get going and lost a few early on and then all of a sudden players are missing. No real word of what happened, of why they’re our, they’re just not available. It’s amazing how many knocks and niggles teams in poor form pick up isn’t it?

I think I posted last summer and into the season that I’ve felt it was this summer that was the big one for Kieron Scott. He’s had two years in the job now. He has his staff in place. They all know the league and what’s required to get out of it. They have to sign better quality this summer. I think my own alarm bells starts when we went into January looking to strengthen and came out of it weaker, and then compounded it by selling Crooks when we did. It’s okay pointing to the money in the bank but what about the team on the pitch.

I know football has changed a lot but across my 33 years of supporting the Boro. But in that time seeing us languishing where we are now has always been considered a failure. It was under Strachan, Mowbray, Warnock, Wilder. Not being in that top 6 leads to trouble. It always has as long as I’ve been going.

I’m not blaming Carrick because as I say, it’s changed a lot now. It’s not like Lennie or Robbo or Rioch, hand-picking your group and working with it. It’s about people above those managers and coaches assembling your squad now. That’s where the bulk of the responsibility would lie now imo.

There’s the makings of a decent first XI in there but the squad is padded out with a mish-mash of players who could be moved on tomorrow morning and nobody would even notice. After two years, four transfer windows and quite a lot of money spent, I’m not so sure that’s where we ought to be tbh.
 
I'd definitely keep Luke Ayling (if his wages are low enough) - with him and Tommy Smith we'd probably have two of the most experienced full-backs in the league.

They're also two players who may want to go down the coaching route.

I'd sell Dijksteel and Bangura, and bring in 2-3 young up and coming full-backs - one would be Harrison Burrows from Peterborough.
 
Colin Warnek said:
For me none.

Ayling - No - he's good but with Smith to return, surely we're better off signing a young RB. Let Dijksteel go as well, he's been a good servant but too injury prone.

Greenwood - No - great start but has badly regressed. Don't want to watch him stroll around in a red shirt any more.

O'Brien - No - he is very hit and miss. Sometimes shows good pace and work rate but then passes straight to the opposition.

Thomas - No - shown nothing to say he's better than Engel, which is not the highest bar either.

That's 4 off the wage bill straight away.
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No. Not sure what’s up with O’Brien but he hasn’t lived up to expectations
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
It’s amazing how many knocks and niggles teams in poor form pick up isn’t it?
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I think it's a vicious circle. A team gets two or three injuries and picks up some poor results. The injured players come back too early and aren't at their best get injured again. More poor results. The back-up players are playing more than they're used to and start to pick up injuries. More poor results. Players start second-guessing themselves, morale goes down and some of the players start to use injuries as an excuse. More poor results. And so it goes.

Conversely, no significant injuries and decent results at the start of the season means that players' morale goes up. Winning makes it much easier to play through the minor aches and pains because all players have a certain amount of pain at all times. Back-ups can step in when required and are coming into a team full of confidence and get boosted by that. More good results. A virtuous circle.

Last season, I reckon Carrick ran his 1st 11 into the ground and we couldn't cope when the season caught up with them. That's the downside of not needing to change a team. Last season we had 11 players who played 2,000 minutes (6 played 3,000) or more in the Championship plus Archer who would have easily done so in a full season. This season we're on track for around 7 to have played more than 2,000 minutes and probably only Howson and Dieng to manage 3,000. On the plus side, none of our players look tired at the moment. Towards the end of last season, it felt like a lot of our players were struggling to maintain their levels.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
I think I after the Blackburn game that my mind was sort of made up on where we are. We put 3 wins together and got ourselves back in the hunt for the top six with a handful of injured players starting to come back, and then delivered that performance against Blackburn and you just run out of patience with some of them.

I do take into account the injuries. It’s been absolutely insane, how many we’ve had. But I’ve always thought players are more likely to miss matches when results aren’t great.

For example, I watched quite a lot of Maidstone United when they won National League South in 2021/22. The team picked itself. Barely anyone ever missed a match as they exceeded all expectations and won the title. The next season they struggled to get going and lost a few early on and then all of a sudden players are missing. No real word of what happened, of why they’re our, they’re just not available. It’s amazing how many knocks and niggles teams in poor form pick up isn’t it?

I think I posted last summer and into the season that I’ve felt it was this summer that was the big one for Kieron Scott. He’s had two years in the job now. He has his staff in place. They all know the league and what’s required to get out of it. They have to sign better quality this summer. I think my own alarm bells starts when we went into January looking to strengthen and came out of it weaker, and then compounded it by selling Crooks when we did. It’s okay pointing to the money in the bank but what about the team on the pitch.

I know football has changed a lot but across my 33 years of supporting the Boro. But in that time seeing us languishing where we are now has always been considered a failure. It was under Strachan, Mowbray, Warnock, Wilder. Not being in that top 6 leads to trouble. It always has as long as I’ve been going.

I’m not blaming Carrick because as I say, it’s changed a lot now. It’s not like Lennie or Robbo or Rioch, hand-picking your group and working with it. It’s about people above those managers and coaches assembling your squad now. That’s where the bulk of the responsibility would lie now imo.

There’s the makings of a decent first XI in there but the squad is padded out with a mish-mash of players who could be moved on tomorrow morning and nobody would even notice. After two years, four transfer windows and quite a lot of money spent, I’m not so sure that’s where we ought to be tbh.
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I agree with a lot of that, but Scott has already had 5 windows - and he was already steeped in the Championship.
 
I think every team for 7th to 18th has 5-7 players who are good enough to be part of a promotion winning team.

I've seen Robbo build a championship winning team out of Lennie's midtable strugglers.

I've seen AK build a promotion winning team base on a spine which struggled under Mogga.

Of course additions were made in both case, but there was a solid core of players already at the club in the promotion winning team. Yes we need to bring in a few, for MC to make the right tactical decisions, and for a bit better luck with injuries. However, a complete overhaul is a mistake. Changing too much too fast condemns us to another season of failure.
 
I’d sign OBrien if the fee / wages were ok.


I’d also probably sign Greenwood for the £1.5m if he only wanted £10k a week or something reasonable [hides behind sofa]
 
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