YouGov Poll - 33 Point lead!

TeessideCleveland said:
I'll be voting Labour as stated
The country needs a change - it's getting bad now, and 14 years is too long. The Tories have nothing left to offer
I'm not expecting to persuade anyone to vote for anyone, but the polls would suggest a lot of people are feeling the same. I'm always glass half empty on opinion polls, but they aren't shifting - so I'm hoping Labour get in and at least make a start in turning things around. Just stopping it getting any worse and halting the decline would be a start
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Think a lot of people think the same.

Also I doubt anything anyone posts on here makes much difference.

Quite like reading laughing and superstu's posts. Find myself agreeing with both of them quite a lot, which probably reflects the complexity of the debate around Labour.

What isn't complex is what needs to happen at the GE. The tories need kicking out, simple as that.
 
Laughing said:
Corbyn handed the press all the ammunition they needed. Starmer gets an easier ride because they have nothing on him. A moments thought would tell you this. Remember beergate, donkeygate. Because he gives them no ammunition.

Corbyn was just a poor politician.
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As with the electoral reform I think you're confusing issues.

Corbyn was a left-leaning politician for 30 odd years. Starmer came from relative obscurity (politically).

The idea that the press have treated them the same but Corbyn just gave more away through incompetence is absurd. You must understand it's absurd so why pretend otherwise? What is the goal? Who are you trying to convince?
 
Scrote said:
As with the electoral reform I think you're confusing issues.

Corbyn was a left-leaning politician for 30 odd years. Starmer came from relative obscurity (politically).

The idea that the press have treated them the same but Corbyn just gave more away through incompetence is absurd. You must understand it's absurd so why pretend otherwise? What is the goal? Who are you trying to convince?
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I can't believe this post is serious.
 
Laughing said:
I can't believe this post is serious.
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Of course it's serious. You're comparing two completely different things and trying to present them as equivalent.

Yes, the press had to dig around to try and find something on Starmer - the donkey sanctuary was farciical.

Corbyn spent decades working towards peace in Northern Ireland and the Middle East and met many unpalatable types - including Margaret Thatcher - the press used that against him and yet he came very close to power against May in 2017 and did enough to scupper her ambitions.

The fact they had to concoct a wholly false antisemitism-scandal to generate the controversy required to oust him in 2019 absolutely negates your assertion that he made it easy for them. If it was so easy why did they have to work so hard?

Conversely, the fact that they have nothing on Starmer's leftist past should be a huge red-flag (no pun intended) to anyone who actually believes there'll be a left-leaning Labour government.
 
Scrote said:
Of course it's serious. You're comparing two completely different things and trying to present them as equivalent.

Yes, the press had to dig around to try and find something on Starmer - the donkey sanctuary was farciical.

Corbyn spent decades working towards peace in Northern Ireland and the Middle East and met many unpalatable types - including Margaret Thatcher - the press used that against him and yet he came very close to power against May in 2017 and did enough to scupper her ambitions.

The fact they had to concoct a wholly false antisemitism-scandal to generate the controversy required to oust him in 2019 absolutely negates your assertion that he made it easy for them. If it was so easy why did they have to work so hard?

Conversely, the fact that they have nothing on Starmer's leftist past should be a huge red-flag (no pun intended) to anyone who actually believes there'll be a left-leaning Labour government.
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Ok let's assume you actually believe this. Let's not go back 30 years. V let's just look at Corbyn at leader of the opposition.

He gifted the press the following:
I am not sure if I would press the button if we are being nuked!
I want too get rid of trident!
When asked to apologise for anti semitic statements he skipped around it and tried to excuse the labour party by suggesting other parties were worse.
He couldn't or wouldn't explain how he would pay for waspi payments!
No costing for free Internet for folks.
Let's have another referendum.

The list goes on.

He was a gift to the right wing media. And it doesn't matter one jot whether you agree with his stance in principle, a good politician knows what to say, when to say it and how to say it.

I wasn't comparing apples and oranges. Corbyn was an awful politician and the worse leader of the labour party at the worst possible time.
 
Laughing said:
Ok let's assume you actually believe this. Let's not go back 30 years. V let's just look at Corbyn at leader of the opposition.

He gifted the press the following:
I am not sure if I would press the button if we are being nuked!
I want too get rid of trident!
When asked to apologise for anti semitic statements he skipped around it and tried to excuse the labour party by suggesting other parties were worse.
He couldn't or wouldn't explain how he would pay for waspi payments!
No costing for free Internet for folks.
Let's have another referendum.

The list goes on.

He was a gift to the right wing media. And it doesn't matter one jot whether you agree with his stance in principle, a good politician knows what to say, when to say it and how to say it.

I wasn't comparing apples and oranges. Corbyn was an awful politician and the worse leader of the labour party at the worst possible time.
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The only thing I agree with is the timing. Brexit was always going to be more important than anything else politically.

You've paraphrased/edited that list to the point I don't recognise it as things he actually said. Can you provide quotes and I'll happily go through them.

As an e.g. on Trident he made it clear that the Labour party policy was to keep it and that he would abide by that policy.

I don't think he ever attempted to explain how the waspi payments would be funded. He just agreed that there was a moral obligation to deal with it.

He never at any point said "Let's have another referendum". That was Starmer.
 
Scrote said:
The only thing I agree with is the timing. Brexit was always going to be more important than anything else politically.

You've paraphrased/edited that list to the point I don't recognise it as things he actually said. Can you provide quotes and I'll happily go through them.

As an e.g. on Trident he made it clear that the Labour party policy was to keep it and that he would abide by that policy.

I don't think he ever attempted to explain how the waspi payments would be funded. He just agreed that there was a moral obligation to deal with it.

He never at any point said "Let's have another referendum". That was Starmer.
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I did paraphrase you are right. He did say in a tv debate that it was labours position that we would negotiate a deal and have a referendum on that deal. It was another referendum and Corbyn was the labour leader.

You are right on trident, I never suggested otherwise, however it was reported in the press in the way it was always going to be reported.

He was an awful labour leader. A decent bloke, probably a good MP but a disaster as a leader.

He gave the press all the ammunition they needed to convince the politically unaware that he would compromise our security, bankrupt the country and make everyone have to vote again on EU membership.

Let me say this again. I was not comparing 30 years of gaffs from Corbyn with 5 years from starmer.

Compare this with Starmer's handling of beer gate. If the police find I have broken the law I will resign.

Ones a politician and a leader, the other is a protest MP.
 
Scrote said:
As an e.g. on Trident he made it clear that the Labour party policy was to keep it and that he would abide by that policy.
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A particular area of interest for me. Corbyn as LOTO actually voted against the renewal of Trident and it is reported, with Michael Eavis as the source, that he disclosed to Eavis that he would 'get rid' of Trident as soon as he could if he became PM.
 
Laughing said:
I did paraphrase you are right. He did say in a tv debate that it was labours position that we would negotiate a deal and have a referendum on that deal. It was another referendum and Corbyn was the labour leader.

You are right on trident, I never suggested otherwise, however it was reported in the press in the way it was always going to be reported.

He was an awful labour leader. A decent bloke, probably a good MP but a disaster as a leader.

He gave the press all the ammunition they needed to convince the politically unaware that he would compromise our security, bankrupt the country and make everyone have to vote again on EU membership.

Let me say this again. I was not comparing 30 years of gaffs from Corbyn with 5 years from starmer.

Compare this with Starmer's handling of beer gate. If the police find I have broken the law I will resign.

Ones a politician and a leader, the other is a protest MP.
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I can't believe this post is serious.
 
Laughing said:
When asked to apologise for anti semitic statements he skipped around it and tried to excuse the labour party by suggesting other parties were worse.
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Which was true in the case of both the Conservative Party and in the general public. Corbyn's mistake was not in mentioning this but in not shouting it from the rooftops. A thorough investigation into the biggest political party in Europe found two people guilty of antiSemitism.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Which was true in the case of both the Conservative Party and in the general public. Corbyn's mistake was not in mentioning this but in not shouting it from the rooftops. A thorough investigation into the biggest political party in Europe found two people guilty of antiSemitism.
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Sometimes people are just looking for an excuse to vote Tory, the right wing media gave them plenty of reasons not to back Corbyn, you have to accept that because of the type of politician he was that he had plenty of baggage. The right wing media portray any kind of attempts at peace brokering as appeasement or terrorist sympathising, any attempt at looking after the ordinary UK person as communism.
 
HolgateCorner said:
Sometimes people are just looking for an excuse to vote Tory, the right wing media gave them plenty of reasons not to back Corbyn, you have to accept that because of the type of politician he was that he had plenty of baggage. The right wing media portray any kind of attempts at peace brokering as appeasement or terrorist sympathising, any attempt at looking after the ordinary UK person as communism.
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Completely true, and they let support for Zionism and for the actions of Israel's actions in Gaza fly under the radar. This is why the left need to fight back and be vocal about it
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Which was true in the case of both the Conservative Party and in the general public. Corbyn's mistake was not in mentioning this but in not shouting it from the rooftops. A thorough investigation into the biggest political party in Europe found two people guilty of antiSemitism.
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Which misses my point Bbg. As I said it doesn't matter what you or I think. It matters what the gutter press can print. Most of the electorate have no interest in politics outside of a few weeks every five years.

There is a small handful of people that elect the uk government. If the mail can influence those sufficiently we get a Tory government returned.

Corbyn was bloody awful as Labour leader. He wanted politics to work in a specific way which it doesn't, never has and probably never will. You have to operate in the real world.
 
Laughing said:
Which misses my point Bbg. As I said it doesn't matter what you or I think. It matters what the gutter press can print. Most of the electorate have no interest in politics outside of a few weeks every five years.

There is a small handful of people that elect the uk government. If the mail can influence those sufficiently we get a Tory government returned.

Corbyn was bloody awful as Labour leader. He wanted politics to work in a specific way which it doesn't, never has and probably never will. You have to operate in the real world.
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I haven't missed any point. I chose to address your assertion that Corbyn wasn't apologetic enough for a manufactured problem. Do you believe he should have sucked it up or fought it?
 
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