Universal Basic Income

Facefuzz said:
Exactly. £1600 is too much thought to make basic choices. It shouldn’t be paying for holidays, new iPhones, sky sports etc. the basic income should cover the basics. It should not be comparable to the wage of somebody who does 40 hours a week.
You want £1600. Get a job
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This is just a ridiculous position to adopt and one that has been rammed down our throats for generations.

I can't even be bothered to explain why you are talking a load of old crap!
 
Facefuzz said:
Exactly. £1600 is too much thought to make basic choices. It shouldn’t be paying for holidays, new iPhones, sky sports etc. the basic income should cover the basics. It should not be comparable to the wage of somebody who does 40 hours a week.
You want £1600. Get a job
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Why do you hate people so much that you wouldn’t want that for them?
 
Laughing said:
OK. If you say so. A little more detail would be nice?
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Given that we've only ever seen energy prices increase and the amount of revenue and tax that is generated from them, why on earth do you think any organisation, or government, would start giving it away?
 
uncle_rico said:
Given that we've only ever seen energy prices increase and the amount of revenue and tax that is generated from them, why on earth do you think any organisation, or government, would start giving it away?
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Because, ultimately it will be very close to free to produce. Nuclear fussion and zero point energy to name but 2 possibilities. The infrastructure is paid for by the tax payer and our energy consumption is free.

We used to perform all surgeries without anaesthetic then things moved on. We used to tax based on the number of windows in your home, the dutch used tulips as the basis for their currency. The production and distribution of energy will do the same. Heating and lighting are not luxuries and energy companies should never be allowed to make a profit. Society should fund it and benefit from that funding.

This will happen because it is inevitable. We have to move from fossil fuels and that paradigm shift opens up lots of possibilities on how we fund energy moving forward. Labour have outlined the first steps for this in their proposed manifesto. Once the production of energy becomes, almost, free, why wouldn't a government adopt this kind of model.
 
Facefuzz said:
Exactly. £1600 is too much thought to make basic choices. It shouldn’t be paying for holidays, new iPhones, sky sports etc. the basic income should cover the basics. It should not be comparable to the wage of somebody who does 40 hours a week.
You want £1600. Get a job
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The amount can be fixed at whatever level is affordable but £1600 doesn’t go all that far these days, particularly in London and the surrounding areas.
 
Facefuzz said:
You want £1600. Get a job
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Everybody gets it, that's the point. It's not just for those without income. However, in a trial carried out in Finland - where UBI was given to a random group of unemployed people, using people on regular unemployment benefits as a control group - it was found that those on UBI were more motivated to accept work that they otherwise might not have. Also:-

"People receiving the basic income reported better health and lower levels of stress, depression, sadness, and loneliness—all major determinants of happiness—than people in the control group. Recipients of the basic income also demonstrated more confidence in their cognitive skills, assessing their ability to remember, learn, and concentrate at higher levels than the control group did. And the basic income enabled people to perceive their financial situation as more secure and manageable, even though their incomes were no higher than those of people in the control group. Finally, basic-income recipients expressed higher levels of trust in their own future, their fellow citizens, and public institutions."
 
By the way, in a court case in the USA, the lawyers for Ron Desantis, the leading culture warrior and challenger to Trump for the GOP presidential nomination, were asked to define "woke". Given that Desantis wants to destroy everything "woke" and never shuts up about it their definition might surprise you.
I'll not keep you in suspense any longer, here it is.

Woke is "the belief there are systemic injustices in American society and the need to address them."

Now, by that definition, being anti-woke looks like you are happy to maintain and even increase those injustices and have no wish to address them.

Call me odd, but trotting out "woke" as an insult doesn't seem like a good way to engage in a reasonable ongoing debate.
 
I was, fairly recently called a do gooding woke warrior and asked the person who called me that, what exactly he meant? He responded by asking me what my definition of woke was., so I replied that woke, as far as I knew was being socially aware and well informed and he then asked what that made him? I told him it made him an ill informed bigot. He just spluttered something and walked away.
 
gregorgregorovich said:
I was, fairly recently called a do gooding woke warrior and asked the person who called me that, what exactly he meant? He responded by asking me what my definition of woke was., so I replied that woke, as far as I knew was being socially aware and well informed and he then asked what that made him? I told him it made him an ill informed bigot. He just spluttered something and walked away.
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Good for you standing up to him, I bet he still thinks that being "woke" is more of an insult than being a bigot, his line of thinking won't last long. Not surprised you didn't get much of a response, you never will from people like that, they're clueless.

These people can't be helped, but they'll get bread out eventually, the tide is turning and kids and young adults now are more than happy to think the polar opposite of their parents/ grandparents etc.
 
Love it when people use woke as an insult

Nothing says "I'm a massive bellend" like implying it's wrong to care about social injustice.

Reality is UBI will become a necessity. Chatgpt and it's ilk are the tip of an iceberg and things like self checkout systems will be in the rise and the sad fact is many jobs will just fall away and we can't all be robotics engineers or coders

It would fix a lot of things as people no longer have to save towards pensions, gamble on shares or hoard property to fund later life. Some still will and anyone can but no-one will have to.

Likewise people who don't enjoy their jobs can spend time training in something they like without being financially trapped by their current wage

But weirdly you discuss this with people and the knee jerk reaction is there will be loads of fraud (current benefit fraud is around 1%) or that people will spend it on the "wrong" things - there are no wrong things. If people enjoy holidays or smoking they can do that - it's designed to fund a life. People have that whole "benefits street" view that it means they're hard working and some benefit claimants will suddenly be elevated to the same level as them as not really irks them.
 
Facefuzz said:
Exactly. £1600 is too much thought to make basic choices. It shouldn’t be paying for holidays, new iPhones, sky sports etc. the basic income should cover the basics. It should not be comparable to the wage of somebody who does 40 hours a week.
You want £1600. Get a job
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It's not about basic choices. It's about providing a base level to allow everyone to make the sort of choices that only a privileged few can currently make without risking disaster.

Kanye West always goes on about the sacrifices he and his gran made and that anyone not in his position obviously didn't make enough sacrifice. The reality is that he sees the world through his survivorship bias and there are thousands of people who tried equally as hard and failed for a whole host of reasons.

Giving people a platform to allow failure actually encourages innovation.

You're also missing the fact that people can still work a 40 hour week on top of the UBI.
 
ThatFragranceGuy said:
Love it when people use woke as an insult

Nothing says "I'm a massive bellend" like implying it's wrong to care about social injustice.

Reality is UBI will become a necessity. Chatgpt and it's ilk are the tip of an iceberg and things like self checkout systems will be in the rise and the sad fact is many jobs will just fall away and we can't all be robotics engineers or coders

It would fix a lot of things as people no longer have to save towards pensions, gamble on shares or hoard property to fund later life. Some still will and anyone can but no-one will have to.

Likewise people who don't enjoy their jobs can spend time training in something they like without being financially trapped by their current wage

But weirdly you discuss this with people and the knee jerk reaction is there will be loads of fraud (current benefit fraud is around 1%) or that people will spend it on the "wrong" things - there are no wrong things. If people enjoy holidays or smoking they can do that - it's designed to fund a life. People have that whole "benefits street" view that it means they're hard working and some benefit claimants will suddenly be elevated to the same level as them as not really irks them.
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I feel a bit sorry for people who derive their sense of self worth from looking down on people who have materially less than themselves.

Unfortunately we have a hell of a lot of these people living amongst us.
 
Colgates_shaving_foam said:
I feel a bit sorry for people who derive their sense of self worth from looking down on people who have materially less than themselves.

Unfortunately we have a hell of a lot of these people living amongst us.
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I am not sure if that is the case. I think it is more a complete lack of emotional and academic intelligence. FF can't think for himself. He accepts the situation he is dumped in and expects everyone else to do the same. He can't see an alternative.
 
Laughing said:
I am not sure if that is the case. I think it is more a complete lack of emotional and academic intelligence. FF can't think for himself. He accepts the situation he is dumped in and expects everyone else to do the same. He can't see an alternative.
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Frankly anyone who uses ‘woke’ as an insult should feel completely embarrassed.
 
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