Universal Basic Income

But you haven't explained why you are against addressing societal injustice, you've just shouted 'woke' at people.
I’m not against societal injustice. I’m against people getting more than others get for doing nothing.
If everybody gets it then great.
Like the idea that you can re train with £1600 coming in. £1600 REPLACING other benefits and not aswell as them and also giving those in abusive relationships the financial freedom to leave. Great idea for that.
 
Where does the free money come from?
Sounds like you might be a convert from the other post above (y)

The money would come from a mixture of places eg wouldn't need the current benefits amounts (or the infrastructure around means testing these), an increased tax on wealth...and don't forget a massive chunk of that £1600 would go straight back to the government in income tax, national insurance, VAT etc. It wouldn't cost nearly as much as people think, especially if there was a sliding scale of universal basic income.
 
Where does the free money come from?
Where does any money come from?

Where does the 150k+ for a new mortgage come from?

Where does the money for HS2 come from?

If you're asking 'is it affordable" then the answer is yes. The government can pay for anything they want. If you're not regularly up in arms about military spending or road infrastructure spending then why does this get your goat?
 
Everybody receives £1600 whether they are in work or not. For those out of work the £1600 replaces all the different benefits that they were receiving. This means that a lot of money is saved on administrating benefits, paying for DWP offices, staff and contractors, heating and lighting costs, business rates etc. Health will be improved by not worrying and stressing about bills and bullying from DWP. Nobody is getting more than anybody in work and the minimum wage need not be altered as a poster suggested further up. People would be able to take low paid jobs such as carers etc, retrain without worrying about losing money, leave abusive partners. Even if it does cost a bit more, it will be well worth it.
I seriously doubt it is straight forward to introduce and run, where will those additional uncosted costs come from? I appreciate there will be some savings, some additional tax revenue as a result, but £890 Billions worth? Thats more than HMRC took in last year in income tax and NI across the entire country. Where does the money that the exchequer took in then come from, for all of the other government spending that is still required? I doubt the triple lock will be applied either.

Can you imagine what would happen to migration across the world for any country adopting such a scheme first, Rishi wouldn’t be wanting to stop the dinghy's, he’d be trying to stop the ferries I’d think.
 
I seriously doubt it is straight forward to introduce and run, where will those additional uncosted costs come from? I appreciate there will be some savings, some additional tax revenue as a result, but £890 Billions worth? Thats more than HMRC took in last year in income tax and NI across the entire country. Where does the money that the exchequer took in then come from, for all of the other government spending that is still required? I doubt the triple lock will be applied either.

Can you imagine what would happen to migration across the world for any country adopting such a scheme first, Rishi wouldn’t be wanting to stop the dinghy's, he’d be trying to stop the ferries I’d think.
Of course it won't be Col. Not sure where you get £890 billion from. But it has got to be better than the complicated, unfit for purpose, starvation benefits system we have now.
 
but £890 Billions worth? Thats more than HMRC took in last year in income tax and NI across the entire country. Where does the money that the exchequer took in then come from, for all of the other government spending that is still required?

Of course it won't be Col. Not sure where you get £890 billion from.

Back of a fagpacket maths...
say 40,000,000 people over 18 but under retirement age
x £19,200
= £768,000,000,000
+ £112,500,000,000 for the current spending on retirement age benefits
= £880,500,000,000

What's £10bn between friends?

Wouldt £1600 a month be an actual cut in benefits for some?
No.
The benefit cap is £1,800/£2,100 for a couple but I assume that is per couple not per person.
Individual cap is £1,200/£1,400.
 
Of course it won't be Col. Not sure where you get £890 billion from. But it has got to be better than the complicated, unfit for purpose, starvation benefits system we have now.
Oh the current system stinks, but do people think prices will stay the same, there will be retailers looking to put prices up to get a cut of the free money too, human greed will find its way, there will always be relative poverty and absolute poverty i’d suggest. My costing was of no of UK adults figure i found (46.35M) x £1600 x 12 Months per year and rounded to nearest billion. That figure will keep on rising.

Crime wont end, will people really be better off, well the working will in theory, the out of work will see winners and losers. The only thing it may do is make certain people limit the numbers of kids they have, but what do you do about those single parents that choose to have a big family come what may? Do you say tough you have £1600 a month, you chose to have 5 kids 🤷‍♂️ those people still will not have enough.
 
Back of a fagpacket maths...
say 40,000,000 people over 18 but under retirement age
x £19,200
= £768,000,000,000
+ £112,500,000,000 for the current spending on retirement age benefits
= £880,500,000,000

What's £10bn between friends?


No.
The benefit cap is £1,800/£2,100 for a couple but I assume that is per couple not per person.
Individual cap is £1,200/£1,400.
Back of a fag packet assumption 🤔
 
Oh the current system stinks, but do people think prices will stay the same, there will be retailers looking to put prices up to get a cut of the free money too, human greed will find its way, there will always be relative poverty and absolute poverty i’d suggest. My costing was of no of UK adults figure i found (46.35M) x £1600 x 12 Months per year and rounded to nearest billion. That figure will keep on rising.

Crime wont end, will people really be better off, well the working will in theory, the out of work will see winners and losers. The only thing it may do is make certain people limit the numbers of kids they have, but what do you do about those single parents that choose to have a big family come what may? Do you say tough you have £1600 a month, you chose to have 5 kids 🤷‍♂️ those people still will not have enough.
But wouldn't some of that be offset by the fact that there would be no need to vet benefit applicants/recipients and administer their claims. The cost to process each claim is astronomical, not to mention the appeals. And as I stated earlier no need for DWP buildings to be maintained or DWP staff and contractors to be paid. Less strain on NHS due to less worry. Tax receipts will increase because of the higher wage. (Unless it is squirrelled off shore- and these sort of people were never going to contribute to our country anyway). People being able to retrain to get into better paid work. Take up of low paid jobs will increase as there will be no fear of benefits being stopped. Crime will not end but the need for crime will be reduced. Another saving.
People having 5 kids just for the benefits is a myth. There are some people with 5 kids who are on benefits because of low pay and family bereavement and relationship break up.
 
Back of a fagpacket maths...
say 40,000,000 people over 18 but under retirement age
x £19,200
= £768,000,000,000
+ £112,500,000,000 for the current spending on retirement age benefits
= £880,500,000,000

What's £10bn between friends?


No.
The benefit cap is £1,800/£2,100 for a couple but I assume that is per couple not per person.
Individual cap is £1,200/£1,400.
I think you will find the single person with dependant children is the same allowance as a couple.
 
But wouldn't some of that be offset by the fact that there would be no need to vet benefit applicants/recipients and administer their claims. The cost to process each claim is astronomical, not to mention the appeals. And as I stated earlier no need for DWP buildings to be maintained or DWP staff and contractors to be paid. Less strain on NHS due to less worry. Tax receipts will increase because of the higher wage. (Unless it is squirrelled off shore- and these sort of people were never going to contribute to our country anyway). People being able to retrain to get into better paid work. Take up of low paid jobs will increase as there will be no fear of benefits being stopped. Crime will not end but the need for crime will be reduced. Another saving.
People having 5 kids just for the benefits is a myth. There are some people with 5 kids who are on benefits because of low pay and family bereavement and relationship break up.
Firstly it isn’t a myth people have 5 kids, lots of large single parent families exist. Where did I say ‘just for the benefits?’ I didn’t, you put that link in yourself. I even suggested some may choose to have less kids rather than more. The new system would have significant administration costs too, new software, staffing administration etc. Your assumption that crime would fall is just that, pure assumption, you can’t assume crime will fall, it isn’t just committed by the poor. Prices will rise, criminals will want their cut.

Prices increase with change usually, it always generally has when big changes occur and retailers and entrepreneurs want their cut of our money or to claw back losses from lean times, see decimalisation, joining the EU, Brexit, Covid, introduction of the Euro abroad etc, all saw price increases in affected areas, I see no reason why this wouldn’t cause inflationary rises. Immigration would definitely increase, people would want free money, where is the infrastructure, who is going to pay for the additional nurses, doctors, dentists, teachers, schools, housing that we need now, never mind if it happened. Taxes would have to rise to cover the inevitable shortfall imho. I really can not see it working, theories rarely play out how you think as mankind will find a way to feck it up, we always do.

I absolutely agree the system is broke, I’d love an extra £1600 a month, but there are far more needy people than I and you can’t just print money it effects the economy brutally, borrowing has to be paid back, when it isn’t it effects our worldwide financial credit ratings, that determines our interest rate of repayment, look how that dived on brexit.
 
I'm trying to put a positive spin on what I think is a very good idea Col. What I wrote is my opinion, nothing more. No one will know how it turns out until after the trial is completed. I am also of the opinion that the trial should also include working people of various incomes to get a broader picture.
The Finnish trial seems to have gone very well with positive results, giving people more hope, confidence and improving their well being. Fingers crossed.
 
Interesting discussion.

Some facts - £1600 is around £1336 per month after NI and Income tax deductions

Current Living Wage is around £1300 per month after tax.

When I said we in the UK have a minimum income of at least £950 per month for over 65s, I was taking account Pension Credit so a single over 65 year old can top up their income to £201 per week with pension credit (if they have less than £16k in savings). If poster don't believe me please check the Governement website. Pension Credit can also give access to other benefits such as payment for energy bills and free TV licences etc

The benefits cap is £14,753 per year for a single person without children - £16,967 in London.

£22,020 for a single person with child - £25,323 in London. - so a income of £16,000 (£1600 per month less tax) basic income could be a cut income for claimants with a child. if there are no other benefits that can be claimed.

I am a bit of cynic when it comes to large Government departments reducing in size. I can't see a big reduction in the money spent running Public services. There are giant empires built up in the DWP and those managers will hang on to them or at worst be moved to other public sector departments on the same terms and conditions or better.

If we find 50% of care asistants give up their jobs because they are given £16,000 a year after tax without having to go into care homes and their pay has to be increased to persuade them to do such work, who is going to say pay the much higher care home fees? I really admire the staff who look after the very elderly who say can't go to the toilet, but I can understand if they decide to stay at home rather than do a job very few on here would do.
 
How many people work part time or not at all because they are worse off if they work additional hours? There’s a huge untapped workforce that could add to the economy if they didn’t have to worry about benefit cuts or waiting weeks for pay after benefits stop.
 
The idea of automation was always to free up time to allow people to spend more time doing what they like.
The automation will increase productivity and save businesses money.
The increased profits will be taxed via sensible regulation and that profit will be used to contribute toward ubi.
Increased renewable energy use will reduce energy costs, meaning people are generally more secure and safe for less cost, meaning the ubi will go further.
People will be able to do more o the things they want to do, helping people in their community, baking, drawing, going for walks. All of that has a positive impact on society. Many people will continue to work, though maybe 4 days a week or less.
Fifty year olds will reduce hours further, or retire early to help support grandkids or children.

This does rely somewhat on our late stage capitalism take on society to end somewhat.
 
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