atypical_boro
Well-known member
I went through a spell of wanting to join back when I was about 20, to follow in my Grandad's foot steps. The advice I was always given was to try the Met first, as it would be so much easier to get in.
Have the police lost our trust?
- Thread starter Quicksilvera
- Start date
festa5
Well-known member
Yep, well trodden path. Complete your probation in the met then look for a transfer.
My mate from uni took that route and he wasn't suited to the job at all. Was a worrier/bit prone to stressing out even at uni. Not the most decisive person either.
Ended up really messing up his mental health in the end, eventually quitting because of it. He'd moved to a regional force by then but they handled it really badly. And in an ideal world he should never have got through in the first place.
coluka
Well-known member
I appreciate that and yes lots need to change. That report was into the Met Police not ALL police, but yes there will be lots of cross overs and implications to nationwide policing. I can only speak as I find, have experienced and, I accept institutional change is much needed. I have seen first hand good and on occasion bad policing.Read the Baroness Casey review Col. I'm afraid that's not the case mate.
Metropolitan Police: What are the key findings of the Casey review?
Baroness Louise Casey described her review as ‘rigorous, stark and unsparing’.www.independent.co.uk
We need to properly fund our public services and ensure they all serve the public interest effectively.
I might be wrong but I think you have said you have worked in or with safer communities partnerships in some way in the past (apologies if I have that wrong). If you have, you will have witnessed good and on occasion sadly bad policing. I have myself been on Police ops in the past, involved in weekly briefings, information sharing, problem solving, and seen lots of positive actions on rooting out direct and indirect discrimination as part of those meetings, briefings and discussion within North Yorkshire. I was 100% convinced senior officers and inspectors, sergeants and police officers bought in to the narrative.
Community leaders from a variety of backgrounds and minority groups were often involved and the senior Police I have worked with were very keen to listen to everyone and certainly sent out the right signals to their officers and community representatives. That doesn’t mean to say it always is listened to and taken on board by everyone or even always carried out. My experiences as an outsider, within North Yorkshire Police is very different to that found to be the case within the Met, although I have no doubt there will be some bad apples and poor practices too and the areas have very different populations and issues they work to resolve.
Laughing
Well-known member
There is plenty of evidence to suggest the police are less trusted, particularly the met, but the evidence covers regional forces too. Complaints against the police are, generally, on the rise. Whilst the police blame this on a simplified procedure, that doesn't appear to be the sole reason as complaints were on the rise prior to the simplified complainst procedures brought in in 2020(I think).
Whenever stop and search has been in place, Manchester, for example, there is an evidential bias towards young black males. Police forces will tell you that it isn't racial profiling. You would have to be an idiot to not assume some pollice officers are racists, same as some pumbers or labourers, teachers and the wider public.
The way metoropolitan police forces are governed is different to regional police forces around the country. The Met, specifically, has ongoing issues and you would struggle to argue against an opinion that reforms have not worked and it's time to disbanned it and start from scratch.
I wouldn't trust a police officer anymore than I would trust anybody else I didn't know. That in itself is a problem.
Whenever stop and search has been in place, Manchester, for example, there is an evidential bias towards young black males. Police forces will tell you that it isn't racial profiling. You would have to be an idiot to not assume some pollice officers are racists, same as some pumbers or labourers, teachers and the wider public.
The way metoropolitan police forces are governed is different to regional police forces around the country. The Met, specifically, has ongoing issues and you would struggle to argue against an opinion that reforms have not worked and it's time to disbanned it and start from scratch.
I wouldn't trust a police officer anymore than I would trust anybody else I didn't know. That in itself is a problem.
Jonny Ingbar
Well-known member
It's a fact that the publics confidence in policing is at am all time low and with good reason.
I'd go as far as to say it's facing an existential crisis.
The reasons are many and varied, but the headlines are the introduction of PCC's (which politicised the entire agenda), the chronic underfunding of the last 13 years and poor leadership.
Attracting the right people to policing at the moment is difficult, due to an erosion of pay and conditions, even more so in the Met, where work is more plentiful. The outcome of that is obvious.
There's some very very good people in the profession, the vast majority want to make a difference to people's lives but the small minority make the headlines.
I'd go as far as to say it's facing an existential crisis.
The reasons are many and varied, but the headlines are the introduction of PCC's (which politicised the entire agenda), the chronic underfunding of the last 13 years and poor leadership.
Attracting the right people to policing at the moment is difficult, due to an erosion of pay and conditions, even more so in the Met, where work is more plentiful. The outcome of that is obvious.
There's some very very good people in the profession, the vast majority want to make a difference to people's lives but the small minority make the headlines.
Corcaigh_the_Cat
Well-known member
We have a policing problem, without a doubt.
The police have been let down by the public, their numbers have been cut drastically over the last dozen or so years due to the public's thirst for public spending cuts. They, like most other public sectors, are struggling to meet the demand we place on them. Strange that so many of the ex police who tell me about this are amongst those that voted for it.
Within the police there are also problems. We've all read the reports of the racism, mysoginy, sexism etc and it is there, it's real. It's real because the police are members of a society that has those traits but they should be recognised at the vetting stage and declined.
Worse still is the covering up that's been going on. Both within their own ranks and protection given to high profile offenders.
The police have to sort out their problems but they need to be backed to do so. They need numbers and they need quality. They should be constantly under vigorous scrutiny due to the powerful positions they hold within society, I'm not sure they are.
The police have been let down by the public, their numbers have been cut drastically over the last dozen or so years due to the public's thirst for public spending cuts. They, like most other public sectors, are struggling to meet the demand we place on them. Strange that so many of the ex police who tell me about this are amongst those that voted for it.
Within the police there are also problems. We've all read the reports of the racism, mysoginy, sexism etc and it is there, it's real. It's real because the police are members of a society that has those traits but they should be recognised at the vetting stage and declined.
Worse still is the covering up that's been going on. Both within their own ranks and protection given to high profile offenders.
The police have to sort out their problems but they need to be backed to do so. They need numbers and they need quality. They should be constantly under vigorous scrutiny due to the powerful positions they hold within society, I'm not sure they are.
Emmersons_BrazillianDong
Well-known member
I do work with them yes mate you're right. I do work with some fantastic cops, some of the newer ones are much more forward thinking but also see some of the bad ones too and some of the attitude of staff.
The bad have such a disproportionate effect that I don't think it's fair to use the few bad apples analogy and I think we let them off by using it.
My view is that they need proper funding though and proper support and oversight. It's a tough job
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Andy_W
Well-known member
Why didn't she just show that she had paid? If she had done that this would not have happened.
Why become abusive and start kicking off, after you've not complied with a ticket inspector, which led to the police coming?
What are the police meant to do if she's kicking off at them, just stand there and take it, and not deal with the reported incident?
Why do the public get involved with everything, which escalates the situation?
The way I see it the cops have a harder job now, with a lack of funding, lack of numbers and their job no doubt becoming harder by every other random person on the street thinking they have a right to be the judge with zero information, training or knowledge of the law.
It's made even worse as everything goes on social media, all nicely cut to frame a specific narrative, and even if it wasn't cut, it wouldn't show the full context.
Of course, there will still be instances where the police get things wrong, but this will be a lot less than previously I expect. They have a lot less power and a lot more accountability with the body cameras and people recording them etc. Bad apples likely won't last anywhere near as long. The problem is, when they do get something wrong (even innocently) everyone in the UK knows about it instantly. The small things which nobody heard of 30 years ago were still happening, but only 30 people heard of them, now it's 30 million.
The above then becomes a feedback loop of one bad video interpretation affecting the judgement and bias of 10 other members of the public, and this then snowballs on to 100 and 1000 etc. Each time it does this the job of the police gets harder and harder.
Every cop I know is sound and their job sounds completely ****. I wouldn't do it for twice the money, fair play on them sticking it out.
Caesium137
Well-known member
They could probably have a good shot at making it as MP's as well..............
I think a lot of this behaviour comes from America. I think the younger generation sees the UK and US as the same culture but the police in the UK are very different to those in the US. The US have guns and no real training. They have elected officials and they have criminals with guns so there is a real risk to life when they interact with the public and there is a much higher chance of corruption and cover ups due to the election system. Because of that the bad ones stand out as killing/arresting innocent people where our bad ones (not the very bad ones like Couzens but the incompetent/power hungry/racist types) aren't killing people. There are videos all the time of (black Americans most frequently) that are recording their interactions because they fear for their life. That ends up with situations like this where someone with a bus ticket is trying to kick up a fuss and make a viral video instead of just complying. There was no risk to her life in this situation. She may have been treated unfairly and she may have a very valid point but the situation could have been solved very quickly and without making a scene.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Yeah, 100%.
The public when being talked to here act like they're being shot at. Not sure why people think they have a right to be abusive and flail their arms around, or resist the cops etc. Just stop, and comply, and things won't escalate. Nobody is going to go to prison for not paying a bus ticket, so nobody is going to prison for paying for a ticket, and they won't even need to leave the area if they comply with the police. Probably 95% of these "incidents" are due to people thinking they're above the law, or think they have the right to break the rules of any service they're using, it's bull****.
Sure, one week there might be 100 incidents and 5 times the cops might get it wrong, but the judge likely won't. But if people keep kicking off over the other 95 where they're being reasonable then the next week it's 50 times the cops are in the wrong as there are 1000 incidents. This number wouldn't escalate if people just complied (which is a low requirement here) and if bystanders didn't interfere, and there were not 1m people ready to watch on SM and get aggro'd.
I feel sorry for the American cops too, their job is even harder as there are like 500 million guns floating about, I wouldn't do their job for 10x the money. Whether the state laws allow people to carry guns is irrelevant, there are guns in every state, loads of them.
The US will probably have more incidents like this as the cops feel like they're under far more risk, all of the time, which they are, which ultimately puts the public at more risk too, which will spill over to the innocent parties. It's all a feedback loop and the higher the overall risk the worse it will be.
Steer
Well-known member
There have been enough reports and official investigations into the police for people to conclude that the force have a serious problem with sexual predators, racists and corruption. Are all police bad - no of course not. I would like to think that the majority are good. But there have been enough horrendous examples of terrible crime committed by certain people within the police and misuse of authority just within the last few months for people to mistrust them.
If I was ever in a position where I had to deal with the police, I would be very wary indeed.
I know one person who was completely stitched up by corrupt officers - that was a few years ago, but no one should be naïve in thinking that they automatically have your best interest at hearts.
If I was ever in a position where I had to deal with the police, I would be very wary indeed.
I know one person who was completely stitched up by corrupt officers - that was a few years ago, but no one should be naïve in thinking that they automatically have your best interest at hearts.
Laughing
Well-known member
The police cannot be supported in that interaction. There was zero attempt at de-escalation for something that was a minor offence. The strict liability law is nonsense too.
I appreciate that we don't see the entire interaction, but that doesn't matter, the de-escalation and conflict management does not have a time limit on it. Police should listen first before speaking. There was zero attempt to comminucate with the woman. The police were wholly, and entirely to blame for what you see, whether the woman volunteered to show her ticket or not. The police abandoned their training and went hands on when it was not necessary.
Anybody who watches that and supports the police methods employed knows nothing about policing nor their preferred methods of conflict management. The officers are t he ones with the training, not the public. It was disgraceful and unproffessional. Not once did the police try and understand why a black woman with a child felt threatened by 3 white police officers.
As for filming interactions, any lawyer will tell you its a good idea.
I appreciate that we don't see the entire interaction, but that doesn't matter, the de-escalation and conflict management does not have a time limit on it. Police should listen first before speaking. There was zero attempt to comminucate with the woman. The police were wholly, and entirely to blame for what you see, whether the woman volunteered to show her ticket or not. The police abandoned their training and went hands on when it was not necessary.
Anybody who watches that and supports the police methods employed knows nothing about policing nor their preferred methods of conflict management. The officers are t he ones with the training, not the public. It was disgraceful and unproffessional. Not once did the police try and understand why a black woman with a child felt threatened by 3 white police officers.
As for filming interactions, any lawyer will tell you its a good idea.
Why don’t the good ones intervene when they witness things like this.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Of course they will have those problems, it's a UK-wide problem, actually a worldwide problem, not just limited to the police, that's in every single UK sector and every single UK public entity I expect. Some areas will have a lot more problems than others, and maybe more of that comes from males and people in more physical roles. I.e. you're maybe more likely to have more issues with a 100 big lads in the police who deal with criminals and massive risk every day, than 100 girls in an office dealing with e-mails. Sorry for the basic stereotype, did that for simplicity.
If you put those guys in any other workplace like construction or the forces it would be exactly the same, both of those areas have massive problems, I've worked significantly in both. It's more of a people problem than a sector problem I think. Harsher sectors are going to have more or more harsh problems, and softer sectors are likely going to have less or less harsh problems. Certain people are more suited to certain roles, and almost any role can change a person's mentality, for better or for worse.
To me it just seems people dig into the police for it as they're the ones who get filmed the most, and they probably get the most complaints as the public get involved in the most situations, especially the ones they know little about.
My daughter slipped over on a night out on Saturday, dislocated her knee cap, excruciating pain. Bundled into a taxi and taken to A&E. Bit of a distance from taxi drop off to A&E (up a ramp) so she was a bit bolloxed.
Young copper saw them struggling, went into A&E to get a wheelchair, got her into it, pushed her to reception.
Another example of the police pushing the innocent public.
Steer
Well-known member
People have a dig at the police because they should be held to a higher standard than a call centre or a building site, because of the authority that they have, the job that they do and the people that they come across from a position of authority. To say that other work places or sectors have the same problem kind of misses that point. If my daughter cannot trust a policeman because of what happened to Sarah Everard, or the 1000 other ongoing investigations into sexual harassments by the Police themselves, then how on earth are we to have law and order?
If a Police officer like David Carrick has had numerous complains of sexual misconduct against them, but they have not been suspended, then there is a very serious problem. How can I trust them to look after my teenage daughter if something happened?
Met Police misconduct: 1000 sexual allegations to be investigated against officers
800 officers are being investigated, facing sexual and domestic abuse claims and other accusations of Met Police misconduct
www.openaccessgovernment.org
Quicksilvera
Well-known member
Quite frankly I think it’s fair that the police are questioned at every turn.
They’ve raped, murdered and been susceptible to corruption for too long.
They’ve raped, murdered and been susceptible to corruption for too long.
Andy_W
Well-known member
It appears (from the statement) that she escalated it, by:
1: Not showing her ticket (which she had)
2: Trying to leg it
3: Being abusive to the police
then the video starts (doesn't show the former)
4: Resisting being held (before being cuffed)
then the video ends (doesn't show them letting her go after she showed them her ticket)
How were the cops meant to de-escalate that, after point 3, follow her around London all day whilst she went shopping, likely hurling further abuse?
It de-escalated when she showed her ticket (the original request), then the cops de-escalated it by letting her go.
Then you have some daft clown on the video claiming it's his sister, when he didn't even know the kid was hers, what's that crap all about, he only made things a lot worse.
Heam44
Well-known member
How do you know there was zero attempt at de-escalation? They could spent the previous 5/10/20 minutes attempting to de-escalate the situation. As you say yourself, we did not see the entire interaction.
Regards to your point about de-escalation / conflict management. Of course there becomes a point whereby the police will cease attempting to “persuade”, “advise” and “warn” and choose to “act”. They haven’t got the time to stand there for hours on end asking someone to produce a bus ticket.
Without seeing the initial interaction it’s possible that these cops have done nothing wrong.
Anyway, I’m going to bow out of this thread, obvs my views are biased so my opinion as to whether the public have lost confidence in the police is worthless. Also I don’t have time to reply to all of the messages I’d like to / messages in reply to me.
Lastly, it’s a shame that in large parts of society the local drug dealing bully thug is more respected than the local cop.