Frozen Horse
Well-known member
Do you have to believe we're going to win it to admit GS is doing a good job?
Can you admit that Southgate is doing a great job yet?
- Thread starter Scrug
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Do you have to believe we're going to win it to admit GS is doing a good job?
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
thats exactly my thinking as well. Beat a big team france,brazil, spain then yes he will have done a cracking job.
I don't think that's right. It'll be written off the same as beating Germany last time round gets written off. People have already said it on this thread that they'll class any wins as being "in spite of Southgate" rather that credited to him.
MolteniArcore
Well-known member
indeedido
Well-known member
Southgate HAS done well, IS doing well. He is a smashing man, a force for good. In my opinion.
I am respectful of Senegal, France/Argentina indeed any of the other 16 teams that will compete in the knockouts, but I am not fearful of any of them.
There appears to me to be an unhelpful increasing polarisation of views, an obsession with posting opinion as facts, an intolerance of others and a need to try and "beat" opposing views to surrender. There are also sweeping assumptions and generalisations made about posters.
In my opinion this is not just the domain of those identified as from the right wing - and many will realise that is not my political home.
I am respectful of Senegal, France/Argentina indeed any of the other 16 teams that will compete in the knockouts, but I am not fearful of any of them.
There appears to me to be an unhelpful increasing polarisation of views, an obsession with posting opinion as facts, an intolerance of others and a need to try and "beat" opposing views to surrender. There are also sweeping assumptions and generalisations made about posters.
In my opinion this is not just the domain of those identified as from the right wing - and many will realise that is not my political home.
Lefty
Well-known member
Nero
Well-known member
Southgate has done a fantastic job with England and continues to do so. He's a smart man and understood the problems with the national team. During his time those problems have been put right and England are getting results because of it.
Regardless of what people state, international football is not the Premier League. Teams must be able to retain possession and for too long England were awful at that. Southgate has managed to implement a style based on controlling a game. At times it's pedestrian and not exactly exciting, but when it clicks England are capable of really good football.
Regardless of what people state, international football is not the Premier League. Teams must be able to retain possession and for too long England were awful at that. Southgate has managed to implement a style based on controlling a game. At times it's pedestrian and not exactly exciting, but when it clicks England are capable of really good football.
BoroMart
Well-known member
There are, but the problem is when we weren't controlling possession like Spain did, our fans complained, now that we do, they complain that we do. It's dishonest.
The big flaw of course in your post, is that we weren't WINNING games under the old English 'up and at em' style of play. Before southgates style we came bottom of our world cup with bloody Costa Rica topping the group under that style of play. World cup before that we finished behind the USA in the group stages, before being played off the park by Germany who looked after the ball better. In between we finished behind wales in the group stages and then got outfought by Iceland in the euros.
England did not have any consistent success playing anti-football for 50 years, all the top teams look after the ball, it's time England fans started to educate themselves on the art of football a little more, less get stuck into 'em, more keep ball
BoroMart
Well-known member
BFS would not be getting success for England, there is nothing more sure other than death and taxes
BoroMart
Well-known member
I don't agreee with that Denmark for example are a good side, we beat Holland, and Sapin in the nations league too.
So we have poor defenders, and you think we should stretch the game and expose them?
A semi final and a final, he's got us to 1/2 our finals, and 1/3rd of our WC semis. So he does win games
Despite having really poor defenders and only one CF? We can beat anyone in a one off match, but we can also loose to decent teams
That's the way seeded tournaments work. The thing is though, if we play 'lower' teams in the round of 16 or quarter, it's because they are full of confidence after beating an exceptional side.
So Sven didn't do as well against the minnows and failed against the big sides, yet is comparable to Southgate? Sven had a much stronger squad, struggled to beat minnows which meant facing the big sides earlier. You make your won luck. Sven had arguably one of the top 3 squads in the world, in a fairer balanced comparison we would be talking about Svens failure to dominate the ball with teh players he had, struggling past minnows, and inability to change games (ie against a 10 man Brazil we were still second best, didn't take advantage of it) and beat the big sides.
2006 - Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Ferdinand, Terry, Lampard, Beckham, Rooney, Owen......it's a crime to not reach the semi final with that set of world class talent, all pretty much in their prime too.
Erimus74
Well-known member
No comparison between Sven & Southgate, cant even put those two in the same sentence
I dont care much for international football but the difference between the 2 managers is like night & day,
TBH I never thought Sven was anything other than average at best for England, same as Fabio
2002 and 2006 squad/team were very talented but until Southgate became manager, we struggled to play to our capabilities, never mind strengths. You could say it was like that for nearly 50 years! He deserves massive praise for that. We've been massive underachievers in international football until southgate took over. It will be interesting if we take this confidence into the future and we start performing consistently well going forwards. We should be regularly in QFs and SFs given our playing strength/options and money in the game in England.
Denmark are an ok side and they had just lost their best player in traumatic circumstances and we were at home. They won 1 of 3 home matches (Russia) in the groups and scraped through with a GD of +1. They would never be in the conversation as potential winners and are in no way a top team. It should have been a comfortable win. The Nations League are glorified friendlies (which is why I don't judge England's performance in them too harshly).
I think we have good attackers and we should utilise them. I have faith in their ability to score goals against the best defences. Best form of defence is a good attack type of thing.
Repeat repeat repeat. He has a great record in games we should win and a dreadful record in games where we shouldn't.
The nature of International football is teams are limited because they can only select from their own country. They can't just buy the best players so teams tend to have strengths and weaknesses. Even the strongest squads like France and Brazil have players that aren't top level. We lose to the best teams because of our approach, not because of the strength of the squads. Our attackers are as good as any teams.
He has been lucky in that his reputation is "enhanced" by getting to semis/finals when the reality is he has avoided the good teams. We finished 2nd in our group at in 2018 so it wasn't because of good performances we got the easy half of the draw. We played Colombia who won their weak group (Japan, Senegal & Poland), so your reason doesn't hold up there. Then we played Sweden who topped their group. They lost to the big team in their group, Germany, but beat the teams they expected to (South Korea & Mexico) then played the Swiss who had done nothing special. Denmark definitely weren't full of confidence in the Euros having witnessed their star player have a heart attack on the pitch. Germany needed a late goal, at home against Hungary, just to get through the groups.
Sven did do as well against the minnows. We lost one match in qualifying for 3 tournaments which is as good as is required. He got through all the group stages, topped a group that contained Argentina but didn't top one that contained France. Southgate has only had 1 good team in any group stage (Belgium) and we lost and finished runner-up. If all the top seeds win their groups and the knock-outs then you should meet them in the QF. We played lesser teams because we finished 2nd and then the Euros was weird because there were 3rd place teams that qualified.
I agree that Sven under performed but his results were similar to Southgate and if Southgate fails to progress past a big team in this tournament then he will also have under performed despite all the goals we've scored against minnows.
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
You make it sound like the only alternative to slow possession based football is kick and rush that's completely disingenuous. Higher tempo football does not have to mean kick and rush at all German teams have done it for years klopps introduced the same tactics to Liverpool possession based high press high tempo.
I suppose it's worth keeping in mind the last Premier League games were on 13th November and the first England game on the 21st. The amount of time Southgate gets with the group of players isn't the same as what a coach like Klopp can work with at a club. What's achievable in the time frame is probably a big part of what he considers.
SmogonOuseburn
Well-known member
Coward,
Boring
Idiot
… some of the insults made on this board by, I must assume, are Boro fans.
Unbelievable!
The guy was a true Boro Legend, he lifted our only major trophy, played a valuable role in the England set up before he became our National Team manager, has qualified without drama for two World Cups and has achieved success at WC 2018 and Euro 2020. This time we have topped our group.
In the past we have had so much difficulty with finding a suitable English manager to even take on the role, because of the problems from the media.
So yes, undoubtedly, he is doing a great job! As someone else on here posted - we should enjoy it while we can.
Boring
Idiot
… some of the insults made on this board by, I must assume, are Boro fans.
Unbelievable!
The guy was a true Boro Legend, he lifted our only major trophy, played a valuable role in the England set up before he became our National Team manager, has qualified without drama for two World Cups and has achieved success at WC 2018 and Euro 2020. This time we have topped our group.
In the past we have had so much difficulty with finding a suitable English manager to even take on the role, because of the problems from the media.
So yes, undoubtedly, he is doing a great job! As someone else on here posted - we should enjoy it while we can.
Laughing
Well-known member
This thread, whilst entertaining is going round in circles. Those who claim Southgate is not doing an excellent job move the goalposts wherever it suites by downplaying the teams we have played and beat. Our the tournament in which we beat them.
They can't use facts, oh I dunno like he failed to get us qualified or out of our group kind of thing, or got beat by Iceland.
They completely fall to recognize the much better squad we have had in the past and faired worse.
It's a pointless thread.
They can't use facts, oh I dunno like he failed to get us qualified or out of our group kind of thing, or got beat by Iceland.
They completely fall to recognize the much better squad we have had in the past and faired worse.
It's a pointless thread.
DonTheKing
Well-known member
Then we've won.
DonTheKing
Well-known member
I'm not a new user been reading the posts for a good 10 year even on the old board. Just thought I'd better give some insight that doesn't fit the narrative, challenge you lot abit.
I'm not baiting anybody, if my opinion really wind's you up that's on you really not me.
Lefty
Well-known member
So Southgate is doing a great job if he wins this tournament even if it is via a penalty shoot out in the final.
Yet you don't think he is doing a great job because he lost in a penalty shoot out in the final of the previous major tournament?
Is that not therefore basing your entire judgement as to whether he is a great manager or not on how good his team is at penalty shoot outs?