Kieran Scott’s recruitment really coming to fruition now
- Thread starter AytonMews
- Start date
Arguing against a biased comparison to suit his agenda..... then following it up with biased predicted improvements to suit yours?
If we take your reply as fact.... We'd have been better off not signing Archer/Ramsey/Giles/Mowatt/Muniz last season...
We'd have finished 5 places below where we finished, still wouldn't have been relegated.... and had the money we spent on the loan fees and wages to spend on our own players last summer?
indeedido
Well-known member
The funny thing is you actually believe your endless musings.
Prattling on with your own hypothetical values about squads across years.
The thing is this squad will finish lower than in the last two seasons. Despite selling well over £30m worth of talent and not being good enough to launch a serious promotion charge next season.
Way_Out_West
Well-known member
2 years ago we finished outside the playoffs on 70 points. If we get 8 points in the remaining 4 games this season, highly possible, we will finish outside the playoffs on 70 points. Hardly a major regression.
It's been an unreal season in terms of injuries, never known anything like it. Imagine if we didn't have the size of squad we do, something that Indeedido regularly criticises as being too big, we'd hardly have been able to field a team in some games, never mind a subs bench.
r00fie1
Well-known member
Agreed.
Considering, we are still within a sniff of seventh [even sixth] place.
Have had a torrid season with injuries.
Two "big" players have moved on and we had a very poor start.
We have the sixth-highest average attendance in the Championship [behind Sunderland/Leeds/Leicester/Southampton/Ipswich]
And still haven't given up on the back of an eight-game unbeaten run.
We should be bluddy grateful we have the Head Coach and the staff that we have.
This season has been a roller-coaster, but it's not all over and we should be proud
BoroMart
Well-known member
massively tyhis year, I mean we're not paying the wages of 4 prem league contracted players and Akpom our highest earner since Britt
You've mentioned the Spence/Tav money in around 30-40 different posts over the last year. It's already been lost in previous seasons - or it's spent since. We don't have it any more.
We made massive losses on players for years and years before we've made any profit on a couple of players in the last two seasons.
The year before making a profit on Spence.... We released Assombalonga at a £15m loss, Fletcher at a £6m loss, and we sold Saville for £5m less than we signed him for...
There's £26 million in losses from 3 players. We sold Flint the season before for a £4m loss and Braithwaite for another £5m loss.... so there's £35 million in losses on 5 players. The list goes on and on.
You can't keep banging on about the profits we've made and completely forget about all the losses. They cancel each other out.
BoroMart
Well-known member
The common these is that all those players bar fletcher, were said to be over-ready proven players. Britt, Saville, Flint all had experience and goals at this level and at a superficial glnce seemed important signings. Braithwate was a current international, and only Fletcher was a project.
Goes to show that there really is no such thing as a guaranteed successful signing. That 35m loss you can add wages too, 8m for Britt, 4m for Fletcher, probably another 5m for the other combined. So 52m down the pan. It shows the importance of Keiren Scotts role and how much better we have done over the last couple of years.
I agree - fans complain about not spending all of the £15m we might have got from recent sales - but we've probably lost closer to £100m over the last 10 seasons signing absolute dead weight.
They were all poor buys, I agree, however to say we made a loss of 35m is misleading. Britt for example cost 15m however, most of not all of his fee will have been accounted for during his time at the club.
BoroMart
Well-known member
It’s not misleading. It’s a 35m transfer trading loss. That’s only part of the overall financial health of course. That period saw the clubs debts increase hugely to over 100m as a championship side. I don’t mind being 100m in debt but having 100m of playing assets. , but for every pound of playing asset we had 2 or 3 pound of debt
The Card Cheat
Well-known member
I think it's a bit binary to entirely judge recruitment by our league position. There are many other factors to consider.
To say "we won't get as many points as last season, so the recruitment is no good", ignores the fact that due to loanees leaving, having to sell players who's contracts were expiring and crippling injuries, we haven't had access for all or most of this season to 9 arguably 10 of the players who performed so well last year. That is incredibly hard to deal with.
However good players we sign are, it will always take a period of bedding in for them. It's not like Football Manager, where players thrive immediately.
You have to look at players individually, and of the players we've signed permanently, even being very pessimistic most have been good signings.
Dieng, VDB, Rogers and Latte Lath have perhaps had better first seasons than anyone we've signed permanently in the last decade, as far as I can remember anyway!
To say "we won't get as many points as last season, so the recruitment is no good", ignores the fact that due to loanees leaving, having to sell players who's contracts were expiring and crippling injuries, we haven't had access for all or most of this season to 9 arguably 10 of the players who performed so well last year. That is incredibly hard to deal with.
However good players we sign are, it will always take a period of bedding in for them. It's not like Football Manager, where players thrive immediately.
You have to look at players individually, and of the players we've signed permanently, even being very pessimistic most have been good signings.
Dieng, VDB, Rogers and Latte Lath have perhaps had better first seasons than anyone we've signed permanently in the last decade, as far as I can remember anyway!
I agree it will have been accounted for - but we can't make a loss of £10m and "account for it", then make a profit of £10m and expect to have that £10m to spend...
Could you explain further, thanks.
LaPennaBianca
Well-known member
You can't get upset at someone else's 'musings' and then write off our squad for next season when we don't know what it will look like.
If we have better luck with injuries and sign two players of the quality of Rav, Latte Lath and Rogers we will be in the top six.
If we sign nobody we'd make it because our first seven game won't be played by a bunch of strangers with the Akpom drama hanging over them.
It's only accounted for as book value - a player is an asset that depreciates during his contract.
Aden Flint for example - bought for £7 million on a 4 year deal - sold for £4 million (up to £6 million in clauses) one year later.
At the time of his sale, Flint's "book value" was £5.25 million, so if we did receive the £6 million - it technically gives us an additional possible spend of 750k.
If for the purposes of this example we had the £7m to spend initially.... We can now spend £7.75m.
However, fans forget that 7m minus 6m is still 1m. Gibson who's essentially bank rolling the club has still lost £1 million in order for the club to be able to spend an additional 750k on another player.
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Assombalonga - forgetting about the additional loses in his massive wages - cost the club ~£15 million.
His value depreciates during his contract and when we released him, his "book value" is zero, so the loss is "accounted for" and we don't lose any money/available spend in terms of FFP.
However - The initial £15 million has still been spent - we don't get the physical money back, even if it hasn't been lost in terms of FFP.
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It's obviously great news (financially) when we're able to sell players like Akpom - who we bought for £2.75m on a 3 year contract and sold for £10.5m.
Not sure how the additional year extension works, so we'll pretend he was sold in his final year, when he was worth a "book value" of 900k. We get the £9.6m added to our "available spend".
Gibson (or the club) also makes a profit (forgetting about wages) of £7.75 million.
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Some fans are suggesting... "We've sold Akpom for £10.5m so we have £10.5m in the bank. Lets spend it."
We can technically spend ~£9m of it in terms of FFP - but Gibson has personally bank rolled the club through bad financial signing after bad financial signing, for years and year and years.
Just because we technically have the money available to spend - doesn't mean we physically have the money available to spend, unless Gibson gives us it... again.
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The fans that are complaining that Gibson won't just write off his tens of millions of loses and give us more money, are probably the same fans who complained about the season cards going up £30.
Simply red
Well-known member
Lack of recruitment in January when we sold Rogers and Crooks without replacement has come back to bite us.
To say they didn't see the sales / offers coming is poor , we keep hearing about the lists for every position , surely one on the forwards on the list could have suited ?
To say they didn't see the sales / offers coming is poor , we keep hearing about the lists for every position , surely one on the forwards on the list could have suited ?
BigAl76
Well-known member
I think the recruitment has been nigh on excellent. Most notably in the last summer window.
Getting Rav was a master stroke. Finding Lath in 'Murica was extremely diligent. Seeing the potential in Rogers was insightful.
Add the others who would have been brought in with a view to slowly integrate them in to the team and develop them, but having to throw them in at the deep end with the majority pretty much holding their own by enlarge - and you have all the hallmarks of a recruitment team that know their stuff.
The way this works is by turning a small net profit, using that to buy a slightly better class of young player with high pitential. Turn a slightly higher net profit and buying a slightly better young player etc etc etc....
Eventually you become a club that is financially stable and can afford to buy a few really good players without it being a massive financial risk.
Gibson could compete with the biggest clubs in England 20 years ago but he can't now. So this is the model he's implementing. To answer OP's original statement - so far, so good I reckon. UTB
Getting Rav was a master stroke. Finding Lath in 'Murica was extremely diligent. Seeing the potential in Rogers was insightful.
Add the others who would have been brought in with a view to slowly integrate them in to the team and develop them, but having to throw them in at the deep end with the majority pretty much holding their own by enlarge - and you have all the hallmarks of a recruitment team that know their stuff.
The way this works is by turning a small net profit, using that to buy a slightly better class of young player with high pitential. Turn a slightly higher net profit and buying a slightly better young player etc etc etc....
Eventually you become a club that is financially stable and can afford to buy a few really good players without it being a massive financial risk.
Gibson could compete with the biggest clubs in England 20 years ago but he can't now. So this is the model he's implementing. To answer OP's original statement - so far, so good I reckon. UTB
indeedido
Well-known member
I’m not “upset” at Mart’s musings.
It’s just his absolute certainty about his own valuations and analysis that are a joke.
I am not saying it is impossible for us to transform into a promotion serious squad, but Scott will have to shape up and bring quality not padding.
We are massively short on quality.