A sensible Brexit idea

They've got it the wrong way round. What we need is not a political union but an economic union, a 'single market' so to speak.
The reason we left was surely political, as it certainly wasn't for economic reasons!

Saying that, I'd be happy if UK joined such a union. It's not going to happen though, Brexit means Brexit.
 
What we need is both. Which we had. Most important is the Single Market alignment. Utterly stupid to leave it.

There is no separating economics from politics. Economics drives politics and sometimes politics drives economics.

I'm all for anything that helps on either.
 
This is where we disagree. I want no truck with the politics of Hungary.

Why stop at Europe, why not add Turkey, the Middle East, Russia, ...
 
This is where we disagree. I want no truck with the politics of Hungary.

Why stop at Europe, why not add Turkey, the Middle East, Russia, ...

You don't think choosing to set a minimum wage is a political decision?

Or aboloshing slavery, shoving children up chimneys, legislating for seatbelts, providing healthcare, tackling climate change......?

Think it through.

Virtually every war is largely about economics.
 
Go on then you give me the borders of this utopia. Which countries do you leave out?

It staggers me how close to 1984 you want. 4 big states run by a few people.

I even have a name for it Eurasia.

Every morning and night on TV, big is good small is bad.

I am starting to see your point.
 
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Go on then you give me the borders of this utopia. Which countries do you leave out?

It staggers me how close to 1984 you want. 4 big states run by a few people.

I even have a name for it Eurasia.

Every morning and night on TV, big is good small is bad.

I am starting to see your point.

What on earth are you talking about?
 
Yiub
What on earth are you talking about?
Wanting big big states. Even I can see the benefits; Guaranteed semis in the World Cup, winning the Eurasia song contest.

Obvious the Americas can speak English, the far East Mandrin, not sure how Australia will feel about that, Eurasia can speak Greek, who is left?

And to think; When you were born you wanted to be a radical a liberal.

Eurasia can have the obvious Dictatorship under Mr Blair.


...
 
The last thing that we need now is to give the far right something to rally round so Labour and the other members of a potential progressive alliance should leave any discussion of alignment with the EU well alone.

Focus on building an alliance to decimate the Tories in the next GE and get the country stabilised before looking to reintegrate with the EU.

No doubt as time marches on we will get to pretty much single market and customers union status anyway but via a painful slog of hundreds of separate agreements.
 
Yiub

Wanting big big states. Even I can see the benefits; Guaranteed semis in the World Cup, winning the Eurasia song contest.

Obvious the Americas can speak English, the far East Mandrin, not sure how Australia will feel about that, Eurasia can speak Greek, who is left?

And to think; When you were born you wanted to be a radical a liberal.

Eurasia can have the obvious Dictatorship under Mr Blair.


...

The EU isn't what you think it is.

It seemed to give more of a t0ss about our region than our National government.

Some things require co-operation to solve. Most decisions, most paths are best negotiated by all the wide various interests being represented, discussions held, then intelligent people coming up with ways to implement solutions.
 
The EU isn't what you think it is.

It seemed to give more of a t0ss about our region than our National government.

Some things require co-operation to solve. Most decisions, most paths are best negotiated by all the wide various interests being represented, discussions held, then intelligent people coming up with ways to implement solutions.
You are not getting off that lightly. It wants and made a single currency. It wants a single financial organisation, an army, a single customs union, a single set of laws; what do they say about something that quacks,, it's a duck.

I think speaking Greek would be appropriate.

It's not the left wing ideas I was brought up with, but times move on.

You have been telling me for years big is better. I am asking how big? To include Northern Africa? Turkey?
 
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Go on then you give me the borders of this utopia. Which countries do you leave out?

It staggers me how close to 1984 you want. 4 big states run by a few people.

I even have a name for it Eurasia.

Every morning and night on TV, big is good small is bad.

I am starting to see your point.
Are you ok?
 
Are you ok?
Not another mental health joke. Keep telling yourself you are one of the nice guys.

I was questioning how big do you think the EU should be and who it should not allow.

For some reason, maybe because it's mainly a Muslim country, you don't want Turkey, but you accepted Hungary. Both with politics I can do without.

Basically you are following the model as described by Mr Blair in 1948, you want 4 big states.

If that's what you want be honest about it.
 
You are not getting off that lightly. It wants and made a single currency. It wants a single financial organisation, an army, a single customs union, a single set of laws; what do they say about something that quacks,, it's a duck.

I think speaking Greek would be appropriate.

It's not the left wing ideas I was brought up with, but times move on.

You have been telling me for years big is better. I am asking how big? To include Northern Africa? Turkey?

IT

IT

There is your fundamental misunderstanding of what the EU is. It isn't an 'IT', it's lots of individual things, not a boogie man.

The EU is comprised of many countries. Each country has it's left and right, its far left and far right, it's businesses, its workers, across every sector, its environmentalist, its consumers etc. They all have their interests, they all get listened to. Because of that many things take a long time to decide and inevitably there are a lot of compromises required. That's just what usually happens when there are competing interests eg Businesses, workers, consumers, environmentalists. It's nearly always a good thing to have compromises. But sometimes they will get things wrong.

'I am asking how big? To include Northern Africa? Turkey?'

That depends on what we are talking about.

If it about tackling climate change, then I would say you can't get too big. I would say the same about adequate food shelter and medical care for every single person on the planet. So you can set minimums, which is what the EU does, which then extends around the planet because of its influence.

Beyond that, it can be small, regional even. As I said, the EU will help regions of countries it sees as lagging behind, as it has in ours.

'It wants a single financial organisation ...... a single customs union, a single set of laws'

Re the laws, only where it has been agreed by the member states for areas the EU has its competences.

Why?

The best answer was one given to former Daily Express then later Sun Brussels correspondent who told me I think in mid to late 2017 when the Withdrawal Agreement was being negotiated that one of the senior EU officials had candidly or cynically answered the very question

'There is not an issue of general distrust towards the UK. That's not the issue, but the EU is a rules based system. Why is that? It's because 28 Member States do not trust each other spontaneously, they trust each other because they work on the basis of agreed common rules with common enforcement, common supervision and under a European court that will make sure they all apply the same rules in the same manner. They trust each other because there are remedies available. If you don't have these remedies you're a third country.'

How is it you, who recently told me you were definitely not ignorant of anything when you voted to Leave, doesn't understand this?

How is it that you can claim not to be ignorant in 2016 when you make a statement in 2022 like 'the EU wants a single financial organisation and a single customs union' when this is all the different options it has been happy to accomodate? The EU is a fudge and a compromise. Look at this picture, I mean properly look at it, don't dismiss it because it doesn't fit in with your biases, assimilate it and then maybe change your mind based on evidence as is proper?

EU agreements.jpg
 
There is not an issue of general distrust towards the UK. That's not the issue, but the EU is a rules based system. Why is that? It's because 28 Member States do not trust each other spontaneously, they trust each other because they work on the basis of agreed common rules with common enforcement, common supervision and under a European court that will make sure they all apply the same rules in the same manner. They trust each other because there are remedies available. If you don't have these remedies available. If you don't have these remedies you're a third country.'

Are you telling me you trust Hungary?

28 countries is 20 too big.

You may or may not of noticed the US based on states all speak the same language, I don't speak 29, 2 at best.

I really think you are being disingenuous, you can't shout about 'its big therefore good' when it could be a lot bigger with Turkey, but they are not to be trusted.
 
Not another mental health joke. Keep telling yourself you are one of the nice guys.

I was questioning how big do you think the EU should be and who it should not allow.

For some reason, maybe because it's mainly a Muslim country, you don't want Turkey, but you accepted Hungary. Both with politics I can do without.

Basically you are following the model as described by Mr Blair in 1948, you want 4 big states.

If that's what you want be honest about it.
It isn't a mental health joke?

You seem to go on strange tirades in many posts & often stop making any sense, telling people what they want and think. It's worrisome.
 
There is not an issue of general distrust towards the UK. That's not the issue, but the EU is a rules based system. Why is that? It's because 28 Member States do not trust each other spontaneously, they trust each other because they work on the basis of agreed common rules with common enforcement, common supervision and under a European court that will make sure they all apply the same rules in the same manner. They trust each other because there are remedies available. If you don't have these remedies available. If you don't have these remedies you're a third country.'

Are you telling me you trust Hungary?

28 countries is 20 too big.

You may or may not of noticed the US based on states all speak the same language, I don't speak 29, 2 at best.

I really think you are being disingenuous, you can't shout about 'its big therefore good' when it could be a lot bigger with Turkey, but they are not to be trusted.

You can be too big, it can make you unwieldy on some matters. That is why competences are agreed.

There are issues with Hungary, I agree. You sidestep the point of the quote though, which I think is deliberate. There we were talking about issues that the EU has competence over. The issues with Hungary are more political, about democracy and go beyond the competences the member states allowed for the EU. You see, you regularly get confused. The EU is a horrible behemoth and you and others in other countries are wary of it having too much control or interference in Member States domestic politics and so have curbed it's powers. That is fine, but don't then whinge at it for not interfering in Hungary or Catalonia or wherever. The other Member States have to decide what to do about Hungary. Like Article 50, when it was composed into the Treaty they hadn't thought through enough what a State choosing to leave would mean or require, so there was even some question over the wording of the clause. Similarly, while they have stipulations on democracy and human rights and the like for countries must have in order to join, what they didn't consider was what happens when a country backslides, because there is no power to evict, merely to sanction. So how will they remedy that? No-one knows, but they will, in time, get there. It might be a fudge, but it will probably be a well thought out one.

That events occur and issues arise that were unforeseen is undeniable and will continue to happen.

They EU will deal with them as they have the other tests. It's size and structure can hamper response. In particular when speed is of the essence, as in most crises.

One example would be Greece. It was handled badly. They have learnt from that, are learning from that. I must remind you, the Eurozone is not the EU - look at the picture.

Another would be the Syrian refugee crisis when the Med countries were swamped. Well, they've learnt from that. Witness their response to Ukrainian refugees compared to the response of the post Brexit UK you voted for?

Having a wide variety of countries and a wide variety of competing interesting within and across them makes for long slow deliberations and decisions, which can be a drawback as I've said, but it has one great strength. The ultimate legislation or decision is more likely to be a better one. Look at all the things this government has rushed through. Are you telling me any of them are good? Are you telling me any of them would have got through the European Parliament if it was allowed a say?
 
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