England Squad

Randy said:
HENDERSON

TAA WALKER MAGUIRE STONES SHAW

BELLINGHAM MOUNT

SANCHO KANE FODEN​
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See that team looks attractive at first glance, but ultimately you are asking most players to play a system that they are unfamiliar with and/or in positions they don't play for their clubs. TAA and Shaw are full backs in a 4 and don't play as wingbacks. Maguire and Stones are CBs in a back 4 and are not used to playing in a back 3/5. Walker can do a job there, but he has been excellent at RB all season in the best defence in the PL.

Neither Bellingham nor Mount play in a midfield 2. Bellingham has tended to play on the right side of a 3, whereas Mount was playing inside left for Lampard and has looked even better as one of 2 number 10s behind a single striker for Chelsea. I don't have a problem with the front 3 as they are all in their rightful positions.

Aside from playing players in unfamiliar roles, we simply have to have a holding player in there. I know some people see that as a negative, but literally every top team has at least one anchor in midfield. Just watch the Champions League Final on Saturday and you'll see that two of Jorginho/Kovacic/Kante will play central midfield for Chelsea (not Mount, he'll be further forward) while at least one of Fernandinho and Rodri, if not both, will play for City. If we go up against France, Germany or the Netherlands with a 17 year old and 22 year old playing in unfamiliar roles, I fear we'll regret it.

For me personally, I'd take TAA and Bellingham out of that starting line up and bring in Rice and one of Henderson or Ward Prowse.
 
WilliamMunny said:
See that team looks attractive at first glance, but ultimately you are asking most players to play a system that they are unfamiliar with and/or in positions they don't play for their clubs. TAA and Shaw are full backs in a 4 and don't play as wingbacks. Maguire and Stones are CBs in a back 4 and are not used to playing in a back 3/5. Walker can do a job there, but he has been excellent at RB all season in the best defence in the PL.

Neither Bellingham nor Mount play in a midfield 2. Bellingham has tended to play on the right side of a 3, whereas Mount was playing inside left for Lampard and has looked even better as one of 2 number 10s behind a single striker for Chelsea. I don't have a problem with the front 3 as they are all in their rightful positions.

Aside from playing players in unfamiliar roles, we simply have to have a holding player in there. I know some people see that as a negative, but literally every top team has at least one anchor in midfield. Just watch the Champions League Final on Saturday and you'll see that two of Jorginho/Kovacic/Kante will play central midfield for Chelsea (not Mount, he'll be further forward) while at least one of Fernandinho and Rodri, if not both, will play for City. If we go up against France, Germany or the Netherlands with a 17 year old and 22 year old playing in unfamiliar roles, I fear we'll regret it.

For me personally, I'd take TAA and Bellingham out of that starting line up and bring in Rice and one of Henderson or Ward Prowse.
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WilliamMunny said:
See that team looks attractive at first glance, but ultimately you are asking most players to play a system that they are unfamiliar with and/or in positions they don't play for their clubs. TAA and Shaw are full backs in a 4 and don't play as wingbacks. Maguire and Stones are CBs in a back 4 and are not used to playing in a back 3/5. Walker can do a job there, but he has been excellent at RB all season in the best defence in the PL.

Neither Bellingham nor Mount play in a midfield 2. Bellingham has tended to play on the right side of a 3, whereas Mount was playing inside left for Lampard and has looked even better as one of 2 number 10s behind a single striker for Chelsea. I don't have a problem with the front 3 as they are all in their rightful positions.

Aside from playing players in unfamiliar roles, we simply have to have a holding player in there. I know some people see that as a negative, but literally every top team has at least one anchor in midfield. Just watch the Champions League Final on Saturday and you'll see that two of Jorginho/Kovacic/Kante will play central midfield for Chelsea (not Mount, he'll be further forward) while at least one of Fernandinho and Rodri, if not both, will play for City. If we go up against France, Germany or the Netherlands with a 17 year old and 22 year old playing in unfamiliar roles, I fear we'll regret it.

For me personally, I'd take TAA and Bellingham out of that starting line up and bring in Rice and one of Henderson or Ward Prowse.
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Yeah, Rice has to start. He has been outstanding this season and was quality in the most recent England games too. He’s one of the first names on the team sheet, let’s be honest.
 
Watkins ahead of Bamford and Ings makes no sense to me. What would Bamford have had to have done to get in the squad? 17 goals and 7 assists is no mean feat. Southgate seems to be a big fan of Watkins though.

I'm glad he didn't leave TAA out at this stage though, that would have just like a 'statement', and usually when England managers do that they look foolish.

Very surprised at White ahead of Tomori too.
 
WilliamMunny said:
See that team looks attractive at first glance, but ultimately you are asking most players to play a system that they are unfamiliar with and/or in positions they don't play for their clubs. TAA and Shaw are full backs in a 4 and don't play as wingbacks. Maguire and Stones are CBs in a back 4 and are not used to playing in a back 3/5. Walker can do a job there, but he has been excellent at RB all season in the best defence in the PL.

Neither Bellingham nor Mount play in a midfield 2. Bellingham has tended to play on the right side of a 3, whereas Mount was playing inside left for Lampard and has looked even better as one of 2 number 10s behind a single striker for Chelsea. I don't have a problem with the front 3 as they are all in their rightful positions.

Aside from playing players in unfamiliar roles, we simply have to have a holding player in there. I know some people see that as a negative, but literally every top team has at least one anchor in midfield. Just watch the Champions League Final on Saturday and you'll see that two of Jorginho/Kovacic/Kante will play central midfield for Chelsea (not Mount, he'll be further forward) while at least one of Fernandinho and Rodri, if not both, will play for City. If we go up against France, Germany or the Netherlands with a 17 year old and 22 year old playing in unfamiliar roles, I fear we'll regret it.

For me personally, I'd take TAA and Bellingham out of that starting line up and bring in Rice and one of Henderson or Ward Prowse.
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You could shift Foden and Sancho back into the midfield 5 when defending. Counterattack is our strongest attribute I think.
 
Watkins ahead of Bamford and Ings makes no sense to me

Makes sense to me. Ings too old, Bamford not quite good enough. Apart from Kane we have a few decent-ish strikers in C-L, Greenwood, Rashford, so none of the aforementioned would be close. We need three and a backup, so Kane, Calvert-Lewin, Rashford. And for me Watkins.
 
Ebor said:
Watkins ahead of Bamford and Ings makes no sense to me

Makes sense to me. Ings too old, Bamford not quite good enough. Apart from Kane we have a few decent-ish strikers in C-L, Greenwood, Rashford, so none of the aforementioned would be close. We need three and a backup, so Kane, Calvert-Lewin, Rashford. And for me Watkins.
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Since when was 28 too old? 😭
 
WilliamMunny said:
See that team looks attractive at first glance, but ultimately you are asking most players to play a system that they are unfamiliar with and/or in positions they don't play for their clubs. TAA and Shaw are full backs in a 4 and don't play as wingbacks. Maguire and Stones are CBs in a back 4 and are not used to playing in a back 3/5. Walker can do a job there, but he has been excellent at RB all season in the best defence in the PL.

Neither Bellingham nor Mount play in a midfield 2. Bellingham has tended to play on the right side of a 3, whereas Mount was playing inside left for Lampard and has looked even better as one of 2 number 10s behind a single striker for Chelsea. I don't have a problem with the front 3 as they are all in their rightful positions.

Aside from playing players in unfamiliar roles, we simply have to have a holding player in there. I know some people see that as a negative, but literally every top team has at least one anchor in midfield. Just watch the Champions League Final on Saturday and you'll see that two of Jorginho/Kovacic/Kante will play central midfield for Chelsea (not Mount, he'll be further forward) while at least one of Fernandinho and Rodri, if not both, will play for City. If we go up against France, Germany or the Netherlands with a 17 year old and 22 year old playing in unfamiliar roles, I fear we'll regret it.

For me personally, I'd take TAA and Bellingham out of that starting line up and bring in Rice and one of Henderson or Ward Prowse.
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Does Trent really play as a RB for Liverpool? I know that's what it says on the team sheet but if you look at the positions he takes up he spends more of the game in a wing back position than a RB position.

Him and Shaw would be absolutely fine as wing backs its not like you are asking them to play a drastically different position.

It frustrates me that we might not be able to build a system to fit around our best players and Trent is one of them in my opinion. People focus far too much on the things he can't do when we should be looking at the strengths he brings to the team.
 
Uwefuchs said:
Does Trent really play as a RB for Liverpool? I know that's what it says on the team sheet but if you look at the positions he takes up he spends more of the game in a wing back position than a RB position.

Him and Shaw would be absolutely fine as wing backs its not like you are asking them to play a drastically different position.

It frustrates me that we might not be able to build a system to fit around our best players and Trent is one of them in my opinion. People focus far too much on the things he can't do when we should be looking at the strengths he brings to the team.
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The problem is defensively we ain’t the best. And for years we have modified our system to suit the best players and it’s Failed miserably. We have no van dyk,Fabiano covering Trent as his positional play is awful.
 
Uwefuchs said:
Does Trent really play as a RB for Liverpool? I know that's what it says on the team sheet but if you look at the positions he takes up he spends more of the game in a wing back position than a RB position.

Him and Shaw would be absolutely fine as wing backs its not like you are asking them to play a drastically different position.

It frustrates me that we might not be able to build a system to fit around our best players and Trent is one of them in my opinion. People focus far too much on the things he can't do when we should be looking at the strengths he brings to the team.
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Full back v wing back is a big difference. TAA for Liverpool is able to run into space created by Salah moving in from the right in the final third, usually dragging the left back in with him. As a wing back you wouldn’t usually have a wide attacking player directly in front of you to do that, which means the left back is free to deal with you.

As for building a system around our best players, that’s what I’m advocating and you seem to be arguing against by supporting a wing back system. Play your best players in the roles that they are used to and you give them the best chance of success. We tried for years to get Gerrard and Lampard to work as a midfield two, asking one to sit when they other went forward. Yet they both had unlimited license to attack at Liverpool and Chelsea as a Xabi Alonso or Makele would sit in. Consequently, neither produced their best form as neither was allowed to play their natural game.

There’s a place in the squad for TAA and maybe even in the first 11. But he is up against the RBs from the defensively excellent Champions of England and Spain, as well as a player a year younger than him who is not far behind as an attacking weapon. So it’s far from a no brainier that he is an automatic choice in the starting lineup.
 
WilliamMunny said:
Full back v wing back is a big difference. TAA for Liverpool is able to run into space created by Salah moving in from the right in the final third, usually dragging the left back in with him. As a wing back you wouldn’t usually have a wide attacking player directly in front of you to do that, which means the left back is free to deal with you.

As for building a system around our best players, that’s what I’m advocating and you seem to be arguing against by supporting a wing back system. Play your best players in the roles that they are used to and you give them the best chance of success. We tried for years to get Gerrard and Lampard to work as a midfield two, asking one to sit when they other went forward. Yet they both had unlimited license to attack at Liverpool and Chelsea as a Xabi Alonso or Makele would sit in. Consequently, neither produced their best form as neither was allowed to play their natural game.

There’s a place in the squad for TAA and maybe even in the first 11. But he is up against the RBs from the defensively excellent Champions of England and Spain, as well as a player a year younger than him who is not far behind as an attacking weapon. So it’s far from a no brainier that he is an automatic choice in the starting lineup.
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Eh? In a wingback system he's naturally going to have space in front of him because you would play with a narrow midfield in front of him. It would work perfectly unless you had wide 'forwards' like Sterling or Sancho playing ahead of him which i wouldn't.

Playing Trent and Shaw as wingbacks is absolutely nothing like playing Gerrard and Lampard in the same team and you know it.

We are poor at centre back and you compensate against that by having two deep lying midfielders or by playing an extra centre back. Playing 3 centre backs doesn't mean we are more negative, I'd argue it allows us be be more attacking and Trent's defensive frailties will be less of a problem if you have Walker playing in the back 3.

I really don't think wingbacks equals playing loads of players out of position, its just a couple of very minor tweaks.
 
Maguire being in full kit during the Europa League final is promising for the Euros, even though he never made an appearance.
 
Uwefuchs said:
Eh? In a wingback system he's naturally going to have space in front of him because you would play with a narrow midfield in front of him. It would work perfectly unless you had wide 'forwards' like Sterling or Sancho playing ahead of him which i wouldn't.

Playing Trent and Shaw as wingbacks is absolutely nothing like playing Gerrard and Lampard in the same team and you know it.

We are poor at centre back and you compensate against that by having two deep lying midfielders or by playing an extra centre back. Playing 3 centre backs doesn't mean we are more negative, I'd argue it allows us be be more attacking and Trent's defensive frailties will be less of a problem if you have Walker playing in the back 3.

I really don't think wingbacks equals playing loads of players out of position, its just a couple of very minor tweaks.
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I explained quite clearly that Liverpool play with wide forwards who drag the opposition full backs inside, creating space for TAA and Robertson. Sorry that you can’t comprehend that.

Anyway I stand by my point about wingback being a different role to fullback. Exhibit A - Marcos Alonso is an excellent wingback, but a bang average left back.

I never once said 3 CBs is negative so I’m not sure who you are arguing with but it’s not me.

And finally, in response to the condescending ‘and you know it’ comment, no I don’t know it. You are asking players to do something they are not used to, which is what we did with Gerrard and Lampard, so it’s exactly the same thing. All I am saying is maximise the potential of your players by playing to their strengths. We have enough good players to do that without having to pigeonhole people into roles they don’t play for their clubs.
 
LowMoorBoro said:
Don’t think any of the English players looked good tonight. Might be tiredness but, they just looked off the pace.
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Shaw and Greenwood had reasonably okay performances. Two of Man U's better players on the night, although that isn't saying much. Agree about Rashford who was the worst player on the pitch by far. Hope he's distracted by the Euros, otherwise he may as well stay home if he's going to put in these sorts of displays.
 
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