Industry on Teesside...

SmallTown said:
You have fallen for the battery life lie. Shame.
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How so? Is not true that batteries degrade through use and charge/discharge cycling? Are you saying that advances in battery technology have eliminated battery degradation?

Do second EV sellers say that the batteries in the cars they are selling have the same range as when new?

Dendrites.
 
ThePrisoner said:
How so? Is not true that batteries degrade through use and charge/discharge cycling? Are you saying that advances in battery technology have eliminated battery degradation?

Do second EV sellers say that the batteries in the cars they are selling have the same range as when new?

Dendrites.
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Because the ten year thing is a myth
Yes
No
No

Are you saying a car that’s done 100000 miles returns the same MPG as a brand new one? Because if you are then you are incorrect and if you are not you are mentioning a perceived problem with EV that an ICE also suffered from. And I’d take a ten year old EV drivetrain over a ten year old ICE one any day in terms of worn compenents
 
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SmallTown said:
Because the ten year thing is a myth
Yes
No
No

Are you saying a car that’s done 100000 miles returns the same MPG as a brand new one? Because if you are then you are incorrect and if you are not you are mentioning a perceived problem with EV that an ICE also suffered from. And I’d take a ten year old EV drivetrain over a ten year old ICE one any day in terms of worn compenents
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"Most new electric car batteries enjoy warranties of around eight years and 100,000 miles. This usually far exceeds the cover offered on other components of the car, which gives you an idea of the battery’s reliability.

Such warranties typically guarantee a minimum of 70% battery capacity (and therefore range) at the end of the cover period. "

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last/

So you have warranty for 100k but you may have to do the last 20k in 50 mile stages :D

The most miles I have had on a car is about 90k (a Mondeo). Didn't notice any reduction in mpg.

You haven't owned a ten year old EV yet have you? Nor has hardly anyone else. You'll be swapping the Tesla after two or three years and 50k at most won't you? Come on, admit it.
 
ThePrisoner said:
So you have warranty for 100k but you may have to do the last 20k in 50 mile stages :D

The.
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I know the anti EV crowd like to exaggerate a lot but I'd love to see your working here!

And you do realise car manufacturers giving a 8 year warranty don't expect the component to fail in year 9? That's insane logic
 
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Just bought my son a Vauxhall Auto Insignia 19 reg 46000miles Approx £16000. I would assume there is very little reduction in power or MPG. If I went looking for the equivalent EV car. Would the battery be still good after that age and mileage ? He can fill it up and get 400 miles with out planning a battery charge. What not to like about ICE cars
 
SmallTown said:
I know the anti EV crowd like to exaggerate a lot but I'd love to see your working here!

And you do realise car manufacturers giving a 8 year warranty don't expect the component to fail in your 9? That's insane logic
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There is a difference between degradation and failure though. 70% battery performance at 100k miles knocks a 200m range down to 140m and I assume other battery performance issues like speed of charging will have the same degradation so it'll take you longer to charge to get those 140m of range. That's a much more annoying issue than an ICE mpg reducing because filling up an ICE still only takes minutes.

I always buy top of the range smart phones and the number one reason I upgrade them is because battery life becomes a problem. I assume that EV batteries can't prevent the degradation issue just like smart phones can't.

Leasing an EV is the best option for me. Not sure I would commit to owning one.
 
SmallTown said:
Of course you should stop it's dangerous not to.

But that's the thing with anti ev crowd isn't it. The obsess oflver range in a way they never did before. They thing its their "gotcha" moment when it really isn't if yiu have a look at the anti ev chat over the last 5 years you'll find that everyone average journey and capacity for storing has increased as EV have got better. They always present theoretical situations like the above which always get longer and longer to make sure they are above the range of whatever the average ev is. And plenty of ev have a real world range of over 230 miles now so I think you'll gave to update your length
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Until I am left with no choice, i'll worry about it then.
 
Sergio said:
Until I am left with no choice, i'll worry about it then.
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That's your perogative I guess. But just a slight warning, blissful ignorance might leave you to make bad choices about the EV you buy
I suggest at some point you should start working out how you want to buy one
 
Nano said:
There is a difference between degradation and failure though. 70% battery performance at 100k miles knocks a 200m range down to 140m and I assume other battery performance issues like speed of charging will have the same degradation so it'll take you longer to charge to get those 140m of range. That's a much more annoying issue than an ICE mpg reducing because filling up an ICE still only takes minutes.

I always buy top of the range smart phones and the number one reason I upgrade them is because battery life becomes a problem. I assume that EV batteries can't prevent the degradation issue just like smart phones can't.

Leasing an EV is the best option for me. Not sure I would commit to owning one.
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EV can't stop degradation no. They mange it way better than a smart phone does though. Cell balancing, heat management and clever charging curves mean the problems are much less. And of course, a battery with 70% capacity is still a working battery. That's a crucial bit people are missing. It still works, it wouldn't need replacing.
 
Defender 4x4 said:
Just bought my son a Vauxhall Auto Insignia 19 reg 46000miles Approx £16000. I would assume there is very little reduction in power or MPG. If I went looking for the equivalent EV car. Would the battery be still good after that age and mileage ? He can fill it up and get 400 miles with out planning a battery charge. What not to like about ICE cars
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Yes is the simple answer to that. My car has done 30000 miles and has 99% battery health. So yes. Helps prove my point about how the anti EV crowd are dangerously exaggerating the effects of battery degradation.
 

SmallTown said:
I know the anti EV crowd like to exaggerate a lot but I'd love to see your working here!

And you do realise car manufacturers giving a 8 year warranty don't expect the component to fail in year 9? That's insane logic
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For a 250 mile range EV when new:

250 x 0.7 = 175 miles range after warranty. That may be 'worst case', but even 80% would still be a 50 mile range reduction.

For my current ICE a 30% capacity loss would mean that range would have reduced by about 150 miles!

With an ICE they tend to go the same range until they fail completely, which could be 200k miles if looked after properly.

Another thing not being given much prominence is the large drop in range during cold weather. What say you about that?

Here is what Technical Connections (an EV enthusiast and owner) says:

Also, how much to install a home charger? What charger power rating can a normal UK house supply accommodate?
 
ThePrisoner said:



For a 250 mile range EV when new:

250 x 0.7 = 175 miles range after warranty. That may be 'worst case', but even 80% would still be a 50 mile range reduction.

For my current ICE a 30% capacity loss would mean that range would have reduced by about 150 miles!

With an ICE they tend to go the same range until they fail completely, which could be 200k miles if looked after properly.

Another thing not being given much prominence is the large drop in range during cold weather. What say you about that?

Here is what Technical Connections (an EV enthusiast and owner) says:

Also, how much to install a home charger? What charger power rating can a normal UK house supply accommodate?
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Again your calculations seem to be based on an exaggeration of capacity loss and a false assumption that capacity loss means unusable batteries. Which is a shame but I guess the anti EV mistruths have really stuck with you.

Yes range depletes in cold weather. Remember you’re working under the assumption that range was an issue in the first place, which it isn’t. But yeah, stopping when I travel up north and spending 15 minutes at the service station instead of 11 is barely noticeable.

Interesting point about the home charging: how much did it cost you to get your petrol pump installed? Can the average garden accommodate the fuel tank?
 
SmallTown said:
Again your calculations seem to be based on an exaggeration of capacity loss and a false assumption that capacity loss means unusable batteries. Which is a shame but I guess the anti EV mistruths have really stuck with you.
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I was using the capacity reduction from the RAC article and an assumed 250 mile range for a new EV which is reasonable, is it not?

You can't seriously be making the case for not having home charging? The day when there will be enough fast DC chargers at stations to accommodate 33 million UK EVs is decades away, if ever. Even then, though I'm not an electrical engineer, surely the grid would be taking an absolute hammering if everyone was doing fast DC charging during the day.
 
ThePrisoner said:
I was using the capacity reduction from the RAC article and an assumed 250 mile range for a new EV which is reasonable, is it not?

You can't seriously be making the case for not having home charging? The day when there will be enough fast DC chargers at stations to accommodate 33 million UK EVs is decades away, if ever. Even then, though I'm not an electrical engineer, surely the grid would be taking an absolute hammering if everyone was doing fast DC charging during the day.
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That still doesn’t explain how you came to your overblown “50 mile range” statement.

I don’t have home charging. Home charging makes an EV a no brainer but not having it doesn’t make it impossible.

And you should NEVER use DC fast charging unless on a long journey. You would think you who seems terrified of battery degradation would know that better than me!
 
SmallTown said:
Again your calculations seem to be based on an exaggeration of capacity loss and a false assumption that capacity loss means unusable batteries. Which is a shame but I guess the anti EV mistruths have really stuck with you.

Yes range depletes in cold weather. Remember you’re working under the assumption that range was an issue in the first place, which it isn’t. But yeah, stopping when I travel up north and spending 15 minutes at the service station instead of 11 is barely noticeable.

Interesting point about the home charging: how much did it cost you to get your petrol pump installed? Can the average garden accommodate the fuel tank?
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Degradation is going to be a big issue. It might not be for your specific use case but you can't speak for everyone.

As I said previously, I drive 200m each way to visit family. I would say that's a pretty common distance for people that travel from North to South. In my current car with 200m range (bit more in summer but possibly even less in winter) I have to make 2 stops, one on each leg, to allow for 200 + 200 + 50 (for trips out while with family). If my car dropped it's range to 150 I'd need an additional stop unless I charge to 100% on each stop which as you know isn't the done thing (takes longer for the last 20% to charge). That would be a massive inconvenience.

I agree that stopping once on a 4hr journey isn't that much of a problem but having to stop multiple times is a big problem. I don't want to be the owner of an EV when people realise the massive downside to owning an older one. New EVs are great which is why I will be leasing for the foreseeable.
 
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