Latte Lath

The Card Cheat said:
The difference between our results when Josh has played and hasn't is incredible. With him our results are literally top two, without him literally bottom of the league. Could be a coincidence but it's a big one.

Edit- in games that Coburn has played at least 40+ minutes in, 10 wins in 14 games. Over 2 points a game, title winning form. Without him 14 points from 19 games! Relegated by Easter form.
Plus he played in our win against Chelsea….our last home win.😱
I think he may be the player we’re missing the most.
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That’s a crazy stat. We should have at least had a free transfer as a back so we had a centre forward on the pitch. Must have had no striker for a third of our season?
 
The Card Cheat said:
The difference between our results when Josh has played and hasn't is incredible. With him our results are literally top two, without him literally bottom of the league. Could be a coincidence but it's a big one.

Edit- in games that Coburn has played at least 40+ minutes in, 10 wins in 14 games. Over 2 points a game, title winning form. Without him 14 points from 19 games! Relegated by Easter form.
Plus he played in our win against Chelsea….our last home win.😱
I think he may be the player we’re missing the most.
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Looking back at teams that get promoted from the championship..
They all have a 'focal ' point up top, often not the prettiest of players or lightening quick.
Mcburnie, Barnes, Mitrovic, Solanke,
 
I think ELL will prove to be a decent addition.

I dont think he will be our main man unfortunately.

I think he will either become a real threat off the bench, or potentially he could play alongside someone.

He certainly has the attributes to contribute 10+ goals a season I think, injuries permitting, even in the supporting role.

Still leaves us looking for that top man though .... in my humble opinion of course.
 
MichaelDebeve said:
I think ELL will prove to be a decent addition.

I dont think he will be our main man unfortunately.

I think he will either become a real threat off the bench, or potentially he could play alongside someone.

He certainly has the attributes to contribute 10+ goals a season I think, injuries permitting, even in the supporting role.

Still leaves us looking for that top man though .... in my humble opinion of course.
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Which was my point, I wasn’t criticising LL I was merely saying that he has a lot of expectation on him in what has been settling in season. But as you say even with LL I’d argue we still needed a striker as well as coburn like LL are still getting used to this level.
 
outoftown said:
Looking back at teams that get promoted from the championship..
They all have a 'focal ' point up top, often not the prettiest of players or lightening quick.
Mcburnie, Barnes, Mitrovic, Solanke,
Click to expand...
I think the way we (and most teams) play now we don't need a striker who necessarily scores 15+ goals. It's not like the old 4-4-2 where you relied on strikers for most of your goals.

We have 4 players on the pitch at all times who should be contributing with goals. It's more important the striker can give us something to aim at and hold onto the ball and bring those 3 behind him into the game further up the pitch. Something none of Forss, Greenwood or Silvera have managed to do well. That's why we still did OK when Crooks played the striker role for us last season. Because he actually can hold it up a bit.

Last season was a bonus that we had Archer who could score goals as well as hold the ball. He was a superb striker at this level. But a lot of the goals came from those 3 players behind:

Akpom - 28
Forss - 10
Crooks - 7
McGree - 6
Ramsey - 5
Jones - 3

Total of 60 goals from those 3 players behind.

This season we have had

Jones - 5
Greenwood - 5
Forss - 5
Silvera - 4
Crooks - 3
McGree - 3
Azaz - 2
Rogers 2

Total - 29. Going to get nowhere near the 60 goals we got from those players last season. Granted Crooks and Forss got a handful of their goals from playing the striker position last season but you can see what I'm getting at.

The players we have got this season obviously aren't the quality of the players we had last season but we are also struggling without a striker who can get hold of the ball up the pitch. The only player who has done that successfully is Coburn which is why we play better when plays. If Josh had played 35+ games this season I have no doubt we would have been more successful. I'm not saying we would have been good enough for promotion but we would have definitely got more goals and therefore more results. He might have only got 10-12 himself but I think those players listed above would have all scored more.

We are also lacking that quality from Giles who would but a handful of decent balls across every match. Watched him a couple of times for Hull and he's been fantastic. He's had 3 assists for them already.
 
Jury's still out but I don't see what he brings to the team. It's certainly not goals (although to be fair, he was feeding on the scraps of scraps on Saturday)
 
B_G said:
We are also lacking that quality from Giles who would but a handful of decent balls across every match. Watched him a couple of times for Hull and he's been fantastic. He's had 3 assists for them already.
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At least we haven't signed three left-backs and not replaced him......................👀
 
Laughing said:
His stats suggest otherwise. He is in the top 12% for goals per minute in the championship for forwards. His xg is 5.24,he has scored 5 goals so pretty much bang on what you would expect. He has scored 5 goals in 10 starts a goal every other game.

If he played a full session and managed a goal every other game he would score 20+ goals. Not sure why you think he wouldn't.
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I'd be vary wary extrapolating those stats from such a short time frame over a full season. 1 good game really skews the stats. It's very easy for strikers to go 3, 4 or more games without a goal and really bring those goals per minutes stats down and he hasn't had that because he's missed the majority of the season.

He's barely played. He's done some very good things and he's also looked dreadful. I think he can be an ok championship striker but a 20 goal a season striker is very different. Teams treat players differently when they are a real threat like that and only the good ones can still stand out. There were only 3 players that got 20 goals last season. He's not given me any impression of him being one of the best 3 players in the league.
 
B_G said:
I think the way we (and most teams) play now we don't need a striker who necessarily scores 15+ goals. It's not like the old 4-4-2 where you relied on strikers for most of your goals.

We have 4 players on the pitch at all times who should be contributing with goals. It's more important the striker can give us something to aim at and hold onto the ball and bring those 3 behind him into the game further up the pitch. Something none of Forss, Greenwood or Silvera have managed to do well. That's why we still did OK when Crooks played the striker role for us last season. Because he actually can hold it up a bit.

Last season was a bonus that we had Archer who could score goals as well as hold the ball. He was a superb striker at this level. But a lot of the goals came from those 3 players behind:

Akpom - 28
Forss - 10
Crooks - 7
McGree - 6
Ramsey - 5
Jones - 3

Total of 60 goals from those 3 players behind.

This season we have had

Jones - 5
Greenwood - 5
Forss - 5
Silvera - 4
Crooks - 3
McGree - 3
Azaz - 2
Rogers 2

Total - 29. Going to get nowhere near the 60 goals we got from those players last season. Granted Crooks and Forss got a handful of their goals from playing the striker position last season but you can see what I'm getting at.

The players we have got this season obviously aren't the quality of the players we had last season but we are also struggling without a striker who can get hold of the ball up the pitch. The only player who has done that successfully is Coburn which is why we play better when plays. If Josh had played 35+ games this season I have no doubt we would have been more successful. I'm not saying we would have been good enough for promotion but we would have definitely got more goals and therefore more results. He might have only got 10-12 himself but I think those players listed above would have all scored more.

We are also lacking that quality from Giles who would but a handful of decent balls across every match. Watched him a couple of times for Hull and he's been fantastic. He's had 3 assists for them already.
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I'd agree with that ..
The ball has to stick further up the pitch to play a 4 2 3 1 effectively, something only JC offers currently.

Something else he/crooks/Akpom offered was an aerial threat.

Watching MOTD , it was noticable that it's something that even the big boys in the Prem have.
Even Fulham and Bournemouth , Palace etc ..

Teams in the top 2 to 4 in the champ for years have players who have an aerial threat

Got me thinking , we're a doddle to defend against when it goes wide / to the deadball line.

Defenders KNOW it's not getting put in the air , so there's no 2nd guessing for them.
Also makes it harder for the ' assister ' .. knowing that it's either eye of a needle pass or a cut back as their only option.

Azaz, Mcgree, Silvera, Forss , Greenwood, Jones won't score 5 headers , or 5 headed assists in the rest of their collective careers at champ level.
 
Nano said:
I'd be vary wary extrapolating those stats from such a short time frame over a full season. 1 good game really skews the stats. It's very easy for strikers to go 3, 4 or more games without a goal and really bring those goals per minutes stats down and he hasn't had that because he's missed the majority of the season.

He's barely played. He's done some very good things and he's also looked dreadful. I think he can be an ok championship striker but a 20 goal a season striker is very different. Teams treat players differently when they are a real threat like that and only the good ones can still stand out. There were only 3 players that got 20 goals last season. He's not given me any impression of him being one of the best 3 players in the league.
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His goal ratio is identical to Coburns.

Lath - 5 in 998 mins
Coburn - 5 in 996 mins

0.45 goals for every 90 minutes played. That's not really 1 in 2 games because strikers will rarely play 90 mins if we had options on the bench. More likely play 60-70 mins so it's closer to 1 in 3 games.
 
You can drill down into the numbers etc, but regardless after seeing him for half a season, albeit with some injuries, he is at best 1 in 3/4 games striker.

So, as we all know, there is work to be done for at least another striker above and beyond ELL and Coburn
 
MichaelDebeve said:
I think ELL will prove to be a decent addition.

I dont think he will be our main man unfortunately.

I think he will either become a real threat off the bench, or potentially he could play alongside someone.

He certainly has the attributes to contribute 10+ goals a season I think, injuries permitting, even in the supporting role.

Still leaves us looking for that top man though .... in my humble opinion of course.
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I wouldn't be surprised to see him play 15 as a single striker, 15 out wide, and the rest of the bench next year. with a new number 9 coming in
 
BoroMart said:
I wouldn't be surprised to see him play 15 as a single striker, 15 out wide, and the rest of the bench next year. with a new number 9 coming in
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I'd agree with that, and that is the positives to be taken from him.

He isnt a goal machine, but has the pace to cause trouble right across the back line so I think he has a decent bit of versatility to his game.

The 2024 Szilard Nemeth!
 
B_G said:
I think the way we (and most teams) play now we don't need a striker who necessarily scores 15+ goals. It's not like the old 4-4-2 where you relied on strikers for most of your goals.
Click to expand...
top 10 champo scorers:
18 goals - Szmodics (10)
17 goals - Whittaker (RW)
16 goals - Armstrong (CF)
15 goals - Jack Clarke (LW), Summerville (RW)
12 goals - Hardie (CF), Keane (CF), Rowe (LW), Broadhead (LW), Chaplin (10)


7 of them are NOT CFs. There will probably only be 5 or 6 CFs who actually score 15+ goals and of those maybe 3 of them will get promoted. Leicester are running away with it and don't have any of the top 10 goal scorers. It's best to have 5 or 6 goal threats rather than one CF who scores 15+ Looking ahead to next season, Lath, Azaz, Jones, Forss, there's 4 threats, we need another CF threat, a LW threat, and a CM/10 threat.
 
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MichaelDebeve said:
I'd agree with that, and that is the positives to be taken from him.

He isnt a goal machine, but has the pace to cause trouble right across the back line so I think he has a decent bit of versatility to his game.

The 2024 Szilard Nemeth!
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yes, he's also hard working out of possession, so I'd have no problem with him in any of the behind the front 3 roles for a few games, but particularly out wide, he'll track back, he'll get involved int eh press, he'll scare FBs from getting too far forward and leaving space behind. If somehow he did played a full season at CF he'd get 12-18 goals, depending on confidence, and a bit of luck, I'm not sure that's enough with his deficiencies to guarantee him a start at CF. He could always improve though, like Akpom did. For me he is a very valuable squad member for a team after a play off spot.
 
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