McGree’s transfer request?

BoroMart said:
What we need is 4 starteers next season, and good quality ones in key positions.
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Do you realise how difficult that is? To add 4 good quality starters. And that is assuming we don't lose Hackney, Howson or McGree I presume.

We signed 10 players plus 4 loans this season and we have probably added 2 good quality starters to the team.

Maybe we should let Scott sign 28 players next season and he'll find the 4 we need.
 
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BoroMart said:
If I've learned anything from watch Dan Barlaser in midfield recently, it's how good Hayden Hackney is. Look at how Hackney receives the ball under pressure, takes the ball on the half turn, drives with the ball and commits players, he's massively under rated by some of our fans.
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The vast majority of Boro fans know how good Hackney is…he is a great player.
Like you say, it’s the little things he does so well that takes really good awareness and technical ability.
Being able to play out of tight areas is what he does best.
 
BoroPhil said:
If one more person says we have a mid-table squad not good enough for promotion I'm going to have to get the xG table out
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I really like xG, but you need to know it's limitations, as it's only showing goals scored against quality of chances created and conceded, against what is to be expected from an average player in the league.

We've scored less than the xG as our finishing has been worse than the average expected, so you could say that's down to our strikers, strikers being injured and other players not being great at finishing. Either way, that's a reflection on the squad.

Then as for chances conceded, we've shipped a lot of goals which should have been saved, especially when Dieng was away, a reflection on our keepers/ availability (squad issue).

Last year we in the green 11.1 on xG, which means we scored 11 more than expected, as players like Akpom, Archer, Ramsey were well above the norm. We were also in the red 11.7 on xGA, which means we also conceded more that we would have hoped but I remember discussing this last year when we conceded some really unlucky goals, early in the season at least. Overall this pretty much balanced out, and we were within 1 position/ 10% of our accrued points, to what xG expected.

This year we're in the red 5.8 on goals, scored 6 less than expected. We're also in the red 9.5 on xGA, but this to me seems more down to keeping than luck, although probably not worth the full 9.5.

The biggest change is from +11 to -6 on goals, which over a full season is probably 20 goals difference, which is what you get when you swap Akpom, Archer and Ramsey, for LL, Coburn (both injured a fair bit) and midfielders who aren't strikers. Not saying LL isn't average though, I think he's good enough to match xG and has done, but he's not above it like some of the other players we've had are.

Interestingly Forss is well up on xG, which I think most of us would have expected, but I don't think he's a lone striker which probably explains why we've not had him there, and he chips in well from the right.

Crooks and Rogers were both half of their xG, which isn't great. Jones is -2 also, but gets himself in the positions more, so it's less of a % drop.
 
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BoroMart said:
If I've learned anything from watch Dan Barlaser in midfield recently, it's how good Hayden Hackney is. Look at how Hackney receives the ball under pressure, takes the ball on the half turn, drives with the ball and commits players, he's massively under rated by some of our fans.
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Hackney's excellent on the half turn, which is way above what is to be expected in this league, which is why other teams will be looking at him, it's a rare attribute for how well he does it, and drives on with it. Barlaser is nowhere near as good on the half turn, or as progressive, but is more creative from a standstill and a better passer though, but needs time to do it which we don't give him. Very different players and could contribute each other well with a young/ fit destroyer behind them. We don't play with a holding mid though, and if we did that would need to be Howson, who's good but we need someone to play 46 games, and be on the way up etc.
 
B_G said:
There's no point in really arguing over whether Bola is better than Engel. Neither are good enough
There's no point arguing over whether Silvera is better than Watmore. Neither are good enough.
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Of course there is, the argument is can they improve to be good enough Watmore and Bola were the finished article and not good enough, Engel has had 6 months playing and learning at this level and already looks a marginal improvement. Silvera has shown flashes in his 6 months at this level.
 
I've heard zip regarding McGree tbh.

Despite feeling very negative about us at the moment I do feel like we were chronically unlucky at times earlier in the seasona and a combination of that and injuries has dented our ability to play (a challenge for Carrick as a young manager) and our confidence to boot.

Fully fit squad and I think we'd have made the playoffs.
 
Andy_W said:
This year we're in the red 5.8 on goals, scored 6 less than expected. We're also in the red 9.5 on xGA, but this to me seems more down to keeping than luck, although probably not worth the full 9.5.
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Two biggest factors for me are:

1) we have played a third of the season without a fit recognised striker, so we haven't scored as many as we should.
2) no defensive selection consistency, meaning the unit as a whole aren't working together well, leading to a bit more time and space for the opposition.

Get a fit and regular back 4 and another CF and we will increase our consistency significantly and improve our actual performance against Xg and xGA
 
B_G said:
Do you realise how difficult that is? To add 4 good quality starters. And that is assuming we don't lose Hackney, Howson or McGree I presume.

We signed 10 players plus 4 loans this season and we have probably added 2 good quality starters to the team.

Maybe we should let Scott signed 28 players next season and he'll find the 4 we need.
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It is without FFP headroom. Luckily we have plenty of that
 
Mcgree was dreadful for that first 30 mins against Norwich, worst player on the pitch for me. Certainly gave the impression of a player playing who wants to be away. Wouldn't surprise me if there is some truth into the rumours that are flying about.
 
Mysonpat. said:
The vast majority of Boro fans know how good Hackney is…he is a great player.
Like you say, it’s the little things he does so well that takes really good awareness and technical ability.
Being able to play out of tight areas is what he does best.
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....and it's really important to the way Carrick plays. We need CM players to be comfortable dropping to receive the ball. If they are marked they need to bounce pass to keep possession and create space behind them, or turn and drive into the space. This is fundamental to how we play and why we have struggled with Barlaser and O'Brien as the midfield 2
 
BoroMart said:
Of course there is, the argument is can they improve to be good enough Watmore and Bola were the finished article and not good enough, Engel has had 6 months playing and learning at this level and already looks a marginal improvement. Silvera has shown flashes in his 6 months at this level.
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Engel looks like he's only played for 6 month but I would guess at 25, he's actually played for more like 20 years
 
Duffman said:
players that have a resale value heading into what would be the final year of their contract and clearly not wanting to sign or going to be offered a new contract are sold rather than lost for free. Been like that forever. Hasn’t McGree only got another year? If he isn’t likely to sign an extension or not going to be offered one then he will be out of the door. I want to like McGree as much as many do on here but his lack of consistency is an issue. Yes he had the long lay off but he can look so good on the ball one game then completely anonymous the next. In all likelihood I expect him to leave this summer.
Again I am not in the same camp as many on Hackney. Have seen him have real outstanding games and some absolute rubbish - more if the latter lately. I imagine he is a kid who at this stage in his career will clearly benefit from being at a club where he is surrounded by better quality players to bring him on. He won’t get that here so if I was his agent I would be looking for a move for him.i think he will go for a solid £4m offer (with the usual stupid add on’s) in the summer.
Not surprised at Forss looking elsewhere as he knows once Jones is back he will be on the bench. Needs more regular football and will get 10 goals in the Championship for a mid table side like a Blackburn or a Preston. Hope he doesn’t go but can see why he would want to.
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4mill for Hackney? Why would we sell for that when he's got years left on contract and is at least worth 15 mill in the current market.

It also would cost more than 4mill to replace him.
 
Andy_W said:
I really like xG, but you need to know it's limitations, as it's only showing goals scored against quality of chances created and conceded, against what is to be expected from an average player in the league.

We've scored less than the xG as our finishing has been worse than the average expected, so you could say that's down to our strikers, strikers being injured and other players not being great at finishing. Either way, that's a reflection on the squad.

Then as for chances conceded, we've shipped a lot of goals which should have been saved, especially when Dieng was away, a reflection on our keepers/ availability (squad issue).

Last year we in the green 11.1 on xG, which means we scored 11 more than expected, as players like Akpom, Archer, Ramsey were well above the norm. We were also in the red 11.7 on xGA, which means we also conceded more that we would have hoped but I remember discussing this last year when we conceded some really unlucky goals, early in the season at least. Overall this pretty much balanced out, and we were within 1 position/ 10% of our accrued points, to what xG expected.

This year we're in the red 5.8 on goals, scored 6 less than expected. We're also in the red 9.5 on xGA, but this to me seems more down to keeping than luck, although probably not worth the full 9.5.

The biggest change is from +11 to -6 on goals, which over a full season is probably 20 goals difference, which is what you get when you swap Akpom, Archer and Ramsey, for LL, Coburn (both injured a fair bit) and midfielders who aren't strikers. Not saying LL isn't average though, I think he's good enough to match xG and has done, but he's not above it like some of the other players we've had are.

Interestingly Forss is well up on xG, which I think most of us would have expected, but I don't think he's a lone striker which probably explains why we've not had him there, and he chips in well from the right.

Crooks and Rogers were both half of their xG, which isn't great. Jones is -2 also, but gets himself in the positions more, so it's less of a % drop.
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This confirms what most of us know. Last season we made up for defensive deficiencies by out scoring the opposition, this season we haven't been able to as we cashed in on our leading goalscorer, lost a quality loan player and replaced them with a couple prospects who have been injured half the season, plus we let our creative replacement for our leading goalscorer go half way through the season just as he was getting up to speed. You reap what you sow!
 
Andy_W said:
I really like xG, but you need to know it's limitations, as it's only showing goals scored against quality of chances created and conceded, against what is to be expected from an average player in the league.

We've scored less than the xG as our finishing has been worse than the average expected, so you could say that's down to our strikers, strikers being injured and other players not being great at finishing. Either way, that's a reflection on the squad.

Then as for chances conceded, we've shipped a lot of goals which should have been saved, especially when Dieng was away, a reflection on our keepers/ availability (squad issue).

Last year we in the green 11.1 on xG, which means we scored 11 more than expected, as players like Akpom, Archer, Ramsey were well above the norm. We were also in the red 11.7 on xGA, which means we also conceded more that we would have hoped but I remember discussing this last year when we conceded some really unlucky goals, early in the season at least. Overall this pretty much balanced out, and we were within 1 position/ 10% of our accrued points, to what xG expected.

This year we're in the red 5.8 on goals, scored 6 less than expected. We're also in the red 9.5 on xGA, but this to me seems more down to keeping than luck, although probably not worth the full 9.5.

The biggest change is from +11 to -6 on goals, which over a full season is probably 20 goals difference, which is what you get when you swap Akpom, Archer and Ramsey, for LL, Coburn (both injured a fair bit) and midfielders who aren't strikers. Not saying LL isn't average though, I think he's good enough to match xG and has done, but he's not above it like some of the other players we've had are.

Interestingly Forss is well up on xG, which I think most of us would have expected, but I don't think he's a lone striker which probably explains why we've not had him there, and he chips in well from the right.

Crooks and Rogers were both half of their xG, which isn't great. Jones is -2 also, but gets himself in the positions more, so it's less of a % drop.
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I think overall what it shows is that we generally performed below expectations this season. And that matches up with what I see at the games, we have thrown so many games away this season through poor defending, stupid goals conceded, poor decision making, bad finishing, the list is endless.

The question is, is that just what our squad is - one that isn't quite good enough and is actually quite poor. Or is that we aren't reaching the standards that you would expect from the players we have. I think it is the latter - I don't think there is a single player in our squad who you can look at and say yes, they've had a consistently excellent season. They've all had good spells but they've also all had very average spells. And the manager isn't blameless, he has made poor decisions on starting line-ups at times and in-game management.

So going back to the earlier point, I don't think the squad is the issue, it's the application. And we just haven't been good enough this season on too many occasions.
 
McGree is indisputably one of our best players. Technically possibly the best.
Of course it would be a loss if he left.

Our squad 12 months ago featured Akpom, Archer, Ramsey, Forss, McGree. Jones and Crooks couldn't get on the pitch. Muniz couldn't make the bench.
Hackney and Howson had Mowatt as competition/support. Barlaser could barely make the bench.
We conceded lots of goals as our GK and CB's were average at best. Giles and Bola were very good and decent at LB.

Our current squad features Forss, McGree and Jones. Plus the stellar acquisitions of Silvera, Gilbert, Latte Lath, Greenwood and Azaz. Oh and the return of Hoppe. Our squad is dramatically weaker in the final third.
An ageing Howson, with Hackney is still our best pairing in midfield. We now have O'Brien for Mowatt - not an upgrade. Barlaser is still Barlaser. We've made no progress here.
We recruited 3 Keepers and Dieng is an improvement. The other 2??
The LB's have gone and we've recruited 4 shockers.
The RB's we had are still here and we've added Ayling who is done.
VdB is a good recruit with obvious promise, but is very raw. We have conceded even more goals, despite bringing in 9 GK's/defenders.

A year ago today we had played the same 35 match number.
We were 3rd, 7 points behind 2nd placed Sheff U and very optimistic. We were 6 points inside the Play off zone and 28 points above the relegation zone.
We are now 12th, 31 points behind 2nd place Ipswich, 10 points outside the play offs and just 9 points above the drop.
We've scored a lot less and conceded a lot more.

They are not selective figures, they are facts, direct comparisons.

How can anybody say our squad has not regressed?
Or our performance has not collapsed?

In today's binary world the focus seems to have to be on one person.

Kieran Scott has recruited 21 of the 28 players on the club website shown as Men's first team; our current awful squad.
In his 5 transfer windows he's sold Tavernier, Spence and Akpom to generate the surplus BoroMart blathers on about. They weren't remotely his products. It is like crediting pulis with the sales of Bamford and Gibson.
We've also moved on Crooks and Payero covering combined outstanding book value.
Which leaves Rogers who he couldn't wait to sell as soon as he generated interest.
He has had a stinker. The squad is weaker, the season has been terrible.
We have bought badly and borrowed badly.

But it is not JUST Scott is it?
Carrick has been dealt a hand of 4's, 5's and 6's, there is no doubt. And there have been injuries, of course there has.
But he is also culpable and has made some really odd choices. The team have not played anything like the football they played last season
I choose to look back at the squad of 22/23. It had defensive frailty and a lack of midfield cover, but Carrick got very good players to improve and perform.
His main problem this season is that he doesn't have the quality.
But he's consistently said how pleased he is with his squad. He's talked himself into the spotlight and sadly, scrutiny.

I just do not understand how anyone thinks our squad needs just 4 players from what it currently is to be a promotion contender. It beggars belief.
McGree, Jones and Dijksteel are all going into their final year. If they are sold they will need replacing.
If Hackney is cashed in on, or Forss is sold they will also need replacing. Hackney would be a massive loss.
If McNair does move on, as seems likely then he will be a loss.
Howson (good as he is) will start next season as a 36 year old. He needs replacing.
The loanees will hopefully all go back. They are not good enough, with the possible exception of Greenwood.

The talk was of models and structures and building...

Sure from an FFP perspective Gibson has scope, but he had scope last summer.
Why does anybody think he will do anything other than let Scott keep on keeping on?
Until he finally needs the scapegoat and it will be seeya Michael.
 
BoroMart said:
Two biggest factors for me are:

1) we have played a third of the season without a fit recognised striker, so we haven't scored as many as we should.
2) no defensive selection consistency, meaning the unit as a whole aren't working together well, leading to a bit more time and space for the opposition.

Get a fit and regular back 4 and another CF and we will increase our consistency significantly and improve our actual performance against Xg and xGA
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We haven't really performed differently when we've had a full squad to choose from as when we were down to the bones. The good thing about our squad is that there is no massive drop in quality when a player is missing because our 1st and 2nd choice players are similar quality. Last year there would have been a noticeable drop if Akpom, Giles or Archer was missing. This year there isn't which is why it wasn't a disaster when they players were missing. The biggest reason there is no drop in quality is because our 1st choice have got significantly worse and not our 2nd choice being significantly better.

Like @B_G said it doesn't matter who is better out of Engel and Bola the same way it doesn't matter whether Barlaser is better than Mowatt or Crooks is better than Azaz etc. None of them are Akpom/Archer levels so we're talking about which squad fillers are better than other squad fillers. You don't get promoted with a team of competent back-ups if you don't have good players that they are backing up. It doesn't matter how good you think our current players are compared to our previous ones. It has cost us a lot of money to build this squad and none of them are good enough that they would get into the Leeds/Leicester/Southampton squad.

We had big bids for players like Strand Larsen and we tried to get Archer on a permanent, we've had big incoming fees for Spence, Tav, Akpom etc. We have had money available and not spent it. We could have bought Giles if we had offered just a bit more but instead we have signed 3 players that aren't as good as him. We could have kept Akpom by offering a better contract. We've spent who knows how much buying/loaning midfielders over the last 3 or 4 years to replace Howson and he's still our best one. We have spent a lot of money on a lot of players when it might have made more sense to spend a lot of money on a few players that are capable of getting us promoted. The current model makes sense if you do it well. If you keep buying players that aren't good enough then you spend the same amount of money on more players that don't improve the squad. Rogers is the big success story but only financially. He scored 2 league goals and barely got going with us.
 
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