Muniz

This has been my biggest frustration in recent years - managers' being left with unbalanced squads.

It was really encouraging recently to read what Wilder had said regarding him wanting a LCB bringing in, because he doesn't do square pegs in round holes. He mentioned that he'd stressed this to the club.

I am concerned however that after being linked with several left-footed CBs, things have gone quiet on that front. I really hope we don't find ourselves in a situation where we have to play McNair or Fry there. Bola apparently did well the other night but didn't Wilder come out and say he doesnt fancy him playing in that role permanently?
I personally think Bola could play that role. There was a time when our system under Warnock - first third or so of the 2020/21 season - was quite fluid in that Bola was drifting between the back-line and the attacking third. I thought it was a really clever way of playing. It might not have been deliberate but it worked for a bit. I think Bola's a good player.
 
But on the other hand, how many Premier League clubs would've been sniffing around the players that make up the majority of the squads at Brighton, Sheffield United, Swansea, Brentford, Wolves, Bournemouth, Burnley before they went up and established themselves or at least made a real impact? Barely any. Like when Liverpool ransacked Southampton for Lallana, Lovren and Lambert and then seemed surprised when they never produced the same form or even settled(Lallana did much later, long after he'd joined).

Because they're just snapping up players without a real care about what they're going to do with them, whereas Southampton had devised a clear playing structure and identified and signed or developed players and characters to play to that system.

This is what progressive clubs are doing and it's what the Boro should be doing. There's a sense they're trying to go that way but stacking a team with half a dozen loan players is just kicking the can down the road IMO. You're back where you started in a year's time. And yes, you could've signed them all permanently and been saddled with contracts and whatnot but on the other hand you're still having to spend that money on more loans and/or signings when the time comes. Every summer will be 10, 11, 12 out and 10, 11, 12 in.

Wilder has a set way of playing and wants a specific sort of player to play it. That'll be the same next summer as well. Wilder won't change. I think maybe a 'promotion at all costs' mentality means we just end up looking for quick fixes, even after making a fuss about how we're going to go in a different or more sustainable direction. We should be developing the squad under this manager and his staff IMO and be looking to spend our money on players who will be here for the long term. The world is packed with good, hungry footballers. We might have to look further than London Colney or Parsons Green to find them.

I can't really see the point of having a state of the art recruitment department, headed up by a respected Head of Football, with a focus on developing a thread that runs right through the club - something Wilder has talked about a few times - only to then go out and sign six lads on loan deals. I don't really see how or why you'd need a whole department, the creation of a new position in the football club, to identify that the goalkeeper on Manchester City's bench is probably really good and we should sign him on loan. Or that Arsenal's youth and reserve teams are worth keeping an eye on. Surely those things are a given.

Where is the creativity, the originality, the actual scouting and unearthing? If we're going to raid Manchester City's bench or sniff around for the crumbs from other 'big' clubs then you might as well spend Kieran Scott's wages on that, surely, and just scrap the idea of creating a 'golden thread' and accept that we'll maybe go up at some point and probably come straight back down. If you're doing a dozen loans surely you don't need a Head of Football or a massive recruitment team. Just a bloke in London looking for the next Isaiah Jones.
Totally agree with your rant especially the issue of renting players. The club may have turned the corner in terms of management quality but this philosophy of loaners and bringing in players for one season (Payero) and then dumping them is crazy.
 
Totally agree with your rant especially the issue of renting players. The club may have turned the corner in terms of management quality but this philosophy of loaners and bringing in players for one season (Payero) and then dumping them is crazy.
It WAS a rant TBF. Third beer territory. But really enjoying thinking about it.

Agree on Payero as well. Unless he personally told the club he wanted to leave or was causing problems, which we don't know, but he's surely an investment. You don't scrap that after a year if everyone's on the same page. He might've had something about him. It's a bit of a shame really.
 
The summer prior to going up under Aitor, we added Downing, Nugent, Stuani, Baptiste and De Pena for about £12m in fees. Kalas, Fabbrini and Stephens arrived on loan but only Kalas could really be considered a regular first team player(though I did like Fabbrini). The chairman believed in the manager and really backed him and then backed him big time in the January.

I had the sense that the decks had been cleared this summer, the amortisation and the big contracts and the wastage had sort of gone now. We had a fresh start with a quality manager and a quality staff with a good core of players, much like we did ahead of that summer of 2015. I'd be a bit disappointed if the club just signed a load of loan players this summer. There is surely money available for Wilder to spend building his team for the longer term? Rather than just half a dozen loans and a few frees.
I think we need to put it into context regarding the quality of the loanee. Some of our recent loan signings have been poor, but I think it's been down to them just not being good enough, rather than them not being fully committed.

We're now in a position where financially we can afford to bring in a higher calibre player on loan.

Adam Armstrong would be an excellent loan signing in my opinion. Given the choice I'd rather we brought him in on loan, rather than sign Gyokeres for a large transfer fee, even though it would mean that wouldn't be our player. I don't think it's anything to do with Gibson not being willing to spend money, as Armstrong will be on big wages and I'd imagine we'll have to pay most or possibly all of them.

I understand your point regarding being able to build for the future if we actually sign players, but we may easily find ourselves in a situation where these loanees do well for us, we gain promotion and we then have the money available to sign them on permanent deals, as was the case with Ramirez, and I'm sure it would have been the same with Bamford had we gone up that season when he was on loan.
 
I personally think Bola could play that role. There was a time when our system under Warnock - first third or so of the 2020/21 season - was quite fluid in that Bola was drifting between the back-line and the attacking third. I thought it was a really clever way of playing. It might not have been deliberate but it worked for a bit. I think Bola's a good player.
I also think Bola is decent, as cover at left wing back. In the championship centre backs need to be big, strong, good in the air. He doesn’t fit that mould unfortunately!
 
But on the other hand, how many Premier League clubs would've been sniffing around the players that make up the majority of the squads at Brighton, Sheffield United, Swansea, Brentford, Wolves, Bournemouth, Burnley before they went up and established themselves or at least made a real impact? Barely any. Like when Liverpool ransacked Southampton for Lallana, Lovren and Lambert and then seemed surprised when they never produced the same form or even settled(Lallana did much later, long after he'd joined).

Because they're just snapping up players without a real care about what they're going to do with them, whereas Southampton had devised a clear playing structure and identified and signed or developed players and characters to play to that system.

This is what progressive clubs are doing and it's what the Boro should be doing. There's a sense they're trying to go that way but stacking a team with half a dozen loan players is just kicking the can down the road IMO. You're back where you started in a year's time. And yes, you could've signed them all permanently and been saddled with contracts and whatnot but on the other hand you're still having to spend that money on more loans and/or signings when the time comes. Every summer will be 10, 11, 12 out and 10, 11, 12 in.

Wilder has a set way of playing and wants a specific sort of player to play it. That'll be the same next summer as well. Wilder won't change. I think maybe a 'promotion at all costs' mentality means we just end up looking for quick fixes, even after making a fuss about how we're going to go in a different or more sustainable direction. We should be developing the squad under this manager and his staff IMO and be looking to spend our money on players who will be here for the long term. The world is packed with good, hungry footballers. We might have to look further than London Colney or Parsons Green to find them.

I can't really see the point of having a state of the art recruitment department, headed up by a respected Head of Football, with a focus on developing a thread that runs right through the club - something Wilder has talked about a few times - only to then go out and sign six lads on loan deals. I don't really see how or why you'd need a whole department, the creation of a new position in the football club, to identify that the goalkeeper on Manchester City's bench is probably really good and we should sign him on loan. Or that Arsenal's youth and reserve teams are worth keeping an eye on. Surely those things are a given.

Where is the creativity, the originality, the actual scouting and unearthing? If we're going to raid Manchester City's bench or sniff around for the crumbs from other 'big' clubs then you might as well spend Kieran Scott's wages on that, surely, and just scrap the idea of creating a 'golden thread' and accept that we'll maybe go up at some point and probably come straight back down. If you're doing a dozen loans surely you don't need a Head of Football or a massive recruitment team. Just a bloke in London looking for the next Isaiah Jones.
Good post Viv.

I think for a club like us it's a balance. We should definitely be looking for the Bolas, Dijksteel and Crooks. We should also be going for players like Jones and Sivi. If Sivi doesn't make it so what?

Finding a Jones probably pays for what? 30 more punts like Sivi. Probably a lot more.

But because prem sides hoover up the talent we have to accept that and that sometimes loans are necessary. But I'd agree our balance has been all wrong. 2-3 top quality loans are fine. But wouldn't want any more than that. And they're only fine as long were also looking at a Bola to compete with those players. I think Giles is the right type, proven in the championship. Probably better than we could realistically unearth elsewhere. More of a sure thing anyway. Armstrong falls into that bracket too. As does the keeper.

Not sure Muniz does, that's developing someone else's project for me. He might come in and smash it. But it just seems to rarely work out that way.
 
Not sure Muniz does, that's developing someone else's project for me. He might come in and smash it. But it just seems to rarely work out that way.

Surely that's a bit different though? We identified him, scouted, pursued and almost signed him (wasn't the story Warnock blocked it?). So he is someone our scouts have identified.

The scouting department identifies players to strengthen us and fulfil the roles that the manager wants filled.

If those are loans or permanents is sort of immaterial in the short term for me. We can't be signing a keeper of Steffen's quality. Wilder says our current keepers aren't good enough to play how I need them to, we need a keeper with X, Y & Z attributes and a back up who can too. We've identified two, signed one and loaned one, and if we go up as champions we may well sign Steffen too. I think it is a fair enough way to proceed.

It'll always be a balancing act, I don't think we will see the fruits of what we are trying to do without the financial security of a year or two in the PL. But even then it'll be a tightrope of risk/reward.
 
Surely that's a bit different though? We identified him, scouted, pursued and almost signed him (wasn't the story Warnock blocked it?). So he is someone our scouts have identified.

The scouting department identifies players to strengthen us and fulfil the roles that the manager wants filled.

If those are loans or permanents is sort of immaterial in the short term for me. We can't be signing a keeper of Steffen's quality. Wilder says our current keepers aren't good enough to play how I need them to, we need a keeper with X, Y & Z attributes and a back up who can too. We've identified two, signed one and loaned one, and if we go up as champions we may well sign Steffen too. I think it is a fair enough way to proceed.

It'll always be a balancing act, I don't think we will see the fruits of what we are trying to do without the financial security of a year or two in the PL. But even then it'll be a tightrope of risk/reward.

Tbf I think that's what annoys me most about Muniz. If Warnock wasn't doing his "I know best because I'm so experienced, are you with me?" act in January by making out those 6 months were somehow crucial in the timing of when he came to England, he'd be our player and our project.

He's obviously better than nothing and, as you say, we should know all about him. But as promising as he is, he's not exactly proven in the championship yet. And if he does do well, unless he fires us to promotion (🤞) it's only Fulham who'll benefit.
 
Surely that's a bit different though? We identified him, scouted, pursued and almost signed him (wasn't the story Warnock blocked it?). So he is someone our scouts have identified.

The scouting department identifies players to strengthen us and fulfil the roles that the manager wants filled.

If those are loans or permanents is sort of immaterial in the short term for me. We can't be signing a keeper of Steffen's quality. Wilder says our current keepers aren't good enough to play how I need them to, we need a keeper with X, Y & Z attributes and a back up who can too. We've identified two, signed one and loaned one, and if we go up as champions we may well sign Steffen too. I think it is a fair enough way to proceed.

It'll always be a balancing act, I don't think we will see the fruits of what we are trying to do without the financial security of a year or two in the PL. But even then it'll be a tightrope of risk/reward.
Not being argumentative but what are we trying to do that is different from what Brighton, Burnley, Wolves, Swansea, Bournemouth, Brentford have aimed to do or actually gone out and done? We're trying to go up and stay up. We will hopefully win the League Cup again. Have a good run in the FA Cup wherever we can. That's pretty much our ceiling. You don't necessarily *need* a couple of years in the Premier League to do what the club want to do in terms of threads and structure and continuity and squad building.

You can get promoted with the right structures in place and continue your building when you're up there, rather than saying we'll do whatever it takes to go up and worry about the plan or the 'vision' when we're there. That's probably how we've ended up where we are now TBH.
 
I personally think Bola could play that role. There was a time when our system under Warnock - first third or so of the 2020/21 season - was quite fluid in that Bola was drifting between the back-line and the attacking third. I thought it was a really clever way of playing. It might not have been deliberate but it worked for a bit. I think Bola's a good player.
Set up a very good goal from that position on Friday that was wrongly ruled out for high feet. It won't have gone unnoticed by Wilder I'm sure. When his confidence is 100% he's a very good player. He's definitely a confidence player as is Dijksteel.
 
I also think Bola is decent, as cover at left wing back. In the championship centre backs need to be big, strong, good in the air. He doesn’t fit that mould unfortunately!
I disagree, playing as a 3rd centre back doesn't necessarily require that, but I've said many times he is superb at defending the far post. Has very good positional sense in and around the penalty area and has made a number of very brave goal saving headers against larger centre forwards. Something the lovely Sol Bamba wasn't very good at. Its not always about size.
 
Not being argumentative but what are we trying to do that is different from what Brighton, Burnley, Wolves, Swansea, Bournemouth, Brentford have aimed to do or actually gone out and done? We're trying to go up and stay up. We will hopefully win the League Cup again. Have a good run in the FA Cup wherever we can. That's pretty much our ceiling. You don't necessarily *need* a couple of years in the Premier League to do what the club want to do in terms of threads and structure and continuity and squad building.

You can get promoted with the right structures in place and continue your building when you're up there, rather than saying we'll do whatever it takes to go up and worry about the plan or the 'vision' when we're there. That's probably how we've ended up where we are now TBH.
Sorry Viv, I wasn't very clear. I meant purely we as in financially not in any sporting sense. I've long ago accepted we probably won't ever win anything of note again unless something akin to what has happened to Newcastle, Man City or PSG happens. There is always the tiniest sliver of a random fluke cup win I suppose, but I think it is almost beyond the realms of possibility now.

I meant more the semi-financial stability where we weren't a complete basket case requiring £5 million to £15 million to prop us up every season.

I want us to have a viable club in ten years time for my son to take my (possible) grandkids to. We need a business model and the infrastructure to allow that. The current losses aren't sustainable, and as we have seen with Derby's efforts and what Villa, Wolves etc. have done, teams will overspend to escape the Champo and to Hell with the consequences.

If it is more prudent to suckle at the teet of Man City and Southampton or whoever to get there, I'm okay with that.
 
I tend to look at the motivations of a player. Muniz is young and ambitious and might just be slightly enamoured by our fans clamour for him. He'll certainly get the full backing of the fans and will probably be desperate to prove himself after sitting it out behind Mitro. Hardly like he'd be coming for a last pay cheque is it?

Armstrong, from the North East so that could or couldn't work for us as he wasn't exactly a hit when he lived here, on a big fat prem contract. I'd be ecstatic to get him with an option to sign him and his class at this level shows but I'm not massively convinced.

You could arguably say that about both though, they've got good contracts on good money and frankly even if they're our players or not they're a damn sight better than what we have and we're hardly flush with options.
 
Fulham are playing at it - they have the money and the bright lights.
He`l be at Darlo Station later...

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