Please don't punish us for 'Westminster mistakes' urges Hartlepool Tory candidate

[Same_as_before]

Can you expand?

That you say you would 'lock my children in a prison rather than let them police it' means that you appreciate that even now, after 20+ years of relative peace following the GFA, policing an internal border in Northern Ireland, if it returned, has a substantial risk of being extremely dangerous. Do I have that right?

Yes, 100%. There is too much venom, too many gangsters. I might be overstating it, but I don't thinks so. They can't even agree on which streets to have a walk down.


There are a lot less flags or is it flegs, than I saw years ago, that has to be a good sign.

I was there and the South quite recently for a few months. Belfast city centre is wonderful, the inner locations, not so good. But the planners have been at work and some of the main roads have split the area, similar to the A66.

The people fantastic.

 

[jam69]

My god that was lucid and without your normal silliness. If that's how it is spelt.

I will say this for the 1000th time I was neither for or against Brexit. I did unlike most on both sides understand how the EU was used as a cash cow for most countries, and the unbelievable level of corruption, including in the UK. Try and do business in Italy it's a nightmare, we failed. Go to Brussels or Strasbourg. It makes no sense, and on a Friday it's shut.

For me personally I have nothing in common with Hungary, the aggressive right wing parties, any of the Slovak countries, or Greece. It was simply too big.

That was never it's intent, Slovenia should have zero say in a single minor British law, zero.

However this has to be measured against the benefits it gives including trade. No matter what people say in here I have nothing against any people's of any country. Once you get politicians involved there main aim is to win votes in their own countries.

I doubt 95%, of this country could name a single MEP, it was time to give up.

I do understand why Sunderland and the rest voted leave, they were skint in 1974 and still skint today.

Incidentally Lefty brought a great point up about the GFA, I don't know the answer. But I am convinced there will be no border eventually, I know I would lock my children in a prison rather than let them police it.

I got as far as "I was neither for or against brexit"

 

[Kp162]

different

 

[Lefty]

Yes, 100%. There is too much venom, too many gangsters. I might be overstating it, but I don't thinks so. They can't even agree on which streets to have a walk down.

Ok.

So did you understand there was a significant risk of an internal border returning if we voted to Leave, but voted for it anyway because you flipped a coin?

Or do you misremember and only appreciated this sometime after the referendum, but judged it more important to respect democracy and implement the choice made by a majority in the referendum?

I think it is the latter, because Northern Ireland was not mentioned by the Leave campaigns before the referendum nor for months afterwards. When it did finally become a spoken about elephant in the room it was at first denied by Leavers that a border for sanitary and phytosanitary checks would be necessary somewhere, either internally in the Island of Ireland or in the Sea between NI and GB, then it was accepted but that there were technologies already available to allow it to be frictionless 'like Switzerland and USA/Canada'. Johnson, I seem to remember, said he would die in a ditch before he allowed a border in the Irish Sea.

So, to go back to my original question, when do you you think you did appreciate this as a real issue? Pre-referendum or post Theresa May's red lines, when commentators finally started to cotton on this would be a major sticking point in negotiations with the EU?

 

[Same_as_before]

Ok.

So did you understand there was a significant risk of an internal border returning if we voted to Leave, but voted for it anyway because you flipped a coin?

Or do you misremember and only appreciated this sometime after the referendum, but judged it more important to respect democracy and implement the choice made by a majority in the referendum?

I think it is the latter, because Northern Ireland was not mentioned by the Leave campaigns before the referendum nor for months afterwards. When it did finally become a spoken about elephant in the room it was at first denied by Leavers that a border for sanitary and phytosanitary checks would be necessary somewhere, either internally in the Island of Ireland or in the Sea between NI and GB, then it was accepted but that there were technologies already available to allow it to be frictionless 'like Switzerland and USA/Canada'. Johnson, I seem to remember, said he would die in a ditch before he allowed a border in the Irish Sea.

So, to go back to my original question, when do you you think you did appreciate this as a real issue? Pre-referendum or post Theresa May's red lines, when commentators finally started to cotton on this would be a major sticking point in negotiations with the EU?

I fully understood the consequences, I simply believe that you cannot expect the UK to make all decisions based on the GFA.

To put it into perspective the total population of NI is less than 2 million, no decisions can be made to appease less than 3% of the UK.

If we take the Scottish independence vote, should Dundee and Glasgow now be independent as that is how they voted.

 

[Lefty]

I fully understood the consequences, I simply believe that you cannot expect the UK to make all decisions based on the GFA.

To put it into perspective the total population of NI is less than 2 million, no decisions can be made to appease less than 3% of the UK.

If we take the Scottish independence vote, should Dundee and Glasgow now be independent as that is how they voted.

Prior to the refendum, prior to casting your vote, you knew there was a serious risk to peace in Northern Ireland?

What alerted you to it?

 

[Laughing]

no idea about his mental health, but he's got a dark and twisted view of the world. He's utterly entrenched in this tory/brexit apologist view, it's dishonest and rambling, and confused. I think he thinks he's putting forward some kind of powerful message.....he is.....just not the the message he thinks he's putting forward.

That wouldn't be SmallTown slinging the mental health mud, would it? regardless of agreeing or disagreeing, that kind of comment should not be tolerated. It belittles and minimises those that do suffer.

 

[Same_as_before]

Prior to the refendum, prior to casting your vote, you knew there was a serious risk to peace in Northern Ireland?

What alerted you to it?

It's not like you to put words in people's mouths. I said I was aware that Brexit would effect the GFA. As for there being problems walk down Sandy Row with a Celtic top on.

 

[SmallTown]

That wouldn't be SmallTown slinging the mental health mud, would it? regardless of agreeing or disagreeing, that kind of comment should not be tolerated. It belittles and minimises those that do suffer.

It's alright he's "ignoring" me so he didn't see it.

I'm just pointing out some of his posts on here are utterly illegible and don't appear to come from a sound mind.

 

[WoodallServices]

I fully understood the consequences, I simply believe that you cannot expect the UK to make all decisions based on the GFA.

To put it into perspective the total population of NI is less than 2 million, no decisions can be made to appease less than 3% of the UK.

If we take the Scottish independence vote, should Dundee and Glasgow now be independent as that is how they voted.

Of course by that logic how high up the “To Do” list do you think a measly few hundred thousand people on Teesside will be?

 

[Lefty]

It's not like you to put words in people's mouths. I said I was aware that Brexit would effect the GFA. As for there being problems walk down Sandy Row with a Celtic top on.

Eh?

I'm going to great lengths not to put words in your mouth. I'm trying to understand your position on Brexit and the danger of an internal border in Ireland on the GFA and specifically when you came to that position.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your position is that it could be very bad?

Do you agree that Brexit did mean that there was a very real possibility that it would lead to us leaving the Single Market? Bearing in mind we have.

Do you agree leaving the Single Market would mean a type of border somewhere would be necessary, either in the Irish sea between GB and NI or between NI and ROI? Bearing in mind there is.

The thing is, unlike you, I don't believe the Brexit vote was people demonstrating they have different values. Mostly, we have the same. I regard you as a very decent person. I don't see you as a Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg type who simply wouldn't care about it because it wouldn't impact them in Somerset and Westminster. I believe you do appreciate the horror of the troubles and care about the impact it had on ordinary people, so I don't believe you would ordinarily choose to risk putting a border in Northern Ireland and see the troubles return. I am correct on that, yeah?

 

[TeessideCleveland]

As they gained seats in Hartlepool I guess the only question is....
If they had out a pro-Bojo set of fliers would they have done even better?

 

[Same_as_before]

Eh?

I'm going to great lengths not to put words in your mouth. I'm trying to understand your position on Brexit and the danger of an internal border in Ireland on the GFA and specifically when you came to that position.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your position is that it could be very bad?

Do you agree that Brexit did mean that there was a very real possibility that it would lead to us leaving the Single Market? Bearing in mind we have.

Do you agree leaving the Single Market would mean a type of border somewhere would be necessary, either in the Irish sea between GB and NI or between NI and ROI? Bearing in mind there is.

The thing is, unlike you, I don't believe the Brexit vote was people demonstrating they have different values. Mostly, we have the same. I regard you as a very decent person. I don't see you as a Boris Johnson or Rees-Mogg type who simply wouldn't care about it because it wouldn't impact them in Somerset and Westminster. I believe you do appreciate the horror of the troubles and care about the impact it had on ordinary people, so I don't believe you would ordinarily choose to risk putting a border in Northern Ireland and see the troubles return. I am correct on that, yeah?

Your summary is fair. I had no doubt it would effect the GFA, it was all part of the 50 50 balance I had on which way to vote, however I never thought it should be part of the decision making process. I have no doubt that few people on either side of the Brexit debate gave it a moment's thought.

I voted in the end for what I personally had seen within the EU, obviously including the UK and Ireland.

What I saw was not good, trying to do business with our EU partners was no where near dealing within the UK . I deleted the rest for judicious reasons.


To me the treatment to Greece and Catelan was appalling, I have heard your justification, I disagree with it.

On this board it was nothing to do with the outcome, it was all about not accepting the result. Simply because people on here thought they were better, I will never accept that.

 

[Lefty]

Your summary is fair. I had no doubt it would effect the GFA, it was all part of the 50 50 balance I had on which way to vote, however I never thought it should be part of the decision making process. I have no doubt that few people on either side of the Brexit debate gave it a moment's thought.

'I never thought it should be part of the decision making process'

I'm a bit confused with how that squares with 'I had no doubt it would effect the GFA'?

'I have no doubt that few people on either side of the Brexit debate gave it a moment's thought.' I would agree in England, but not in Northern Ireland, I suggest.

So you, unlike many, were aware it would be an issue when you voted and factored it in. What made you aware?

 

[Unravel_Morrison]

'I never thought it should be part of the decision making process'

I'm a bit confused with how that squares with 'I had no doubt it would effect the GFA'?

'I have no doubt that few people on either side of the Brexit debate gave it a moment's thought.' I would agree in England, but not in Northern Ireland, I suggest.

So you, unlike many, were aware it would be an issue when you voted and factored it in. What made you aware?

You're not going to get a justification for it, his position is that of a contrarian, who can set aside certain consequences separately to suit any particular position.

This is someone who was 50/50 with the original position just edging to one side maybe by 1%. When it hasn't worked out, he has doubled down on the 51% rather than reflected that the other 49% of his view might have been at least been correct after all.

That is 100% his right to do so, but he shouldn't be surprised when questioned on it, particularly when most of his beef with the EU appear to be actions by individual nations rather than EU wide dictats.

 

[Same_as_before]

'I never thought it should be part of the decision making process'

I'm a bit confused with how that squares with 'I had no doubt it would effect the GFA'?

'I have no doubt that few people on either side of the Brexit debate gave it a moment's thought.' I would agree in England, but not in Northern Ireland, I suggest.

So you, unlike many, were aware it would be an issue when you voted and factored it in. What made you aware?

Because I am of Irish heritage, it's that simple. I read the Irish Times, it's what I can do, read.

I was in the Michael Collins brand of republicanism, great biography BTW.

Where we differ is that I think UK policy cannot be governed by less that 2% of it's population.

I spent far too much times in both countries, but I have never been to the west coast, I understand it is stunning.

Like you I was brought up with Wilson as a hero for not getting involved with Vietnam. It's where I think Labour should be, I am a Blairite, but disagree with a number if his actions.

Cameron had a referendum because he was a coward, he never dreamed it would be close, neither did I to be fair to him.

Both sides lied through there teeth, gave information they knew to be rubbish.

I think the treatment on here of the elderly and council house voters was appalling, even one or two, more than that wished them dead so young people would vote to return to the EC. Always remember those are the decent people on here. I am the low life.

On a last note can someone stop me typing 'if' rather than 'of'.

 

[Unravel_Morrison]

I dont believe anyone on here has wished death on the elderly.

Pointing out how a change in demographics will change voting patterns is not the same thing.

Its not just down to age. A lot of EU citizens will end up as UK citizens. The Tories have lost London now and the other big cities will follow.

Let's get PR in ASAP.

 

[Same_as_before]

I am not sure it is the same thing, and there were more than one.

And no I am not going to trawl through the message board, so therefore I back down on that one.

However, I was against PR, but times change, maybe today is the right time.

 

[Unravel_Morrison]

I am not sure it is the same thing, and there were more than one.

And no I am not going to trawl through the message board, so therefore I back down on that one.

However, I was against PR, but times change, maybe today is the right time.

I think if anyone had said (apologies Rob cos these could be your kids) "can't wait till the old racists die off" I think we would remember it.

The fact is that the main difference in voting was based on age. It would seem churlish when discussing the vote to ignore it.

If nothing else PR would get people working together and stop the increasing need for headline grabbing nonsense instead of policy implementation.

 

[Same_as_before]

I think if anyone had said (apologies Rob cos these could be your kids) "can't wait till the old racists die off" I think we would remember it.

The fact is that the main difference in voting was based on age. It would seem churlish when discussing the vote to ignore it.

If nothing else PR would get people working together and stop the increasing need for headline grabbing nonsense instead of policy implementation.

Agreed. I never mentioned racists, but as you brought it up, it was standard fare, or is it fair?

There was far too much, they are thick, take the vote off them. One guy even suggested the minimum requirement to vote should be a Desmond.