Riley McGree [Mail / Sun]

Zoophonic said:
Celtic's revenue has dropped £30m in two seasons but still 3 times the size of ours - we aren't great shakes. We lost £35m last financial year. I have no idea what would happen if we don't make the Premier League. We have a strategy but a high risk one.
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It is always best to work with facts if possible.

It's worth noting nobody has posted that this lad will go to Celtic, or should go.
All that was stated was that Celtic have way more financial muscle than Middlesbrough unless we are in the Premier League. This is indisputable fact.

In the last 5 published years, Celtic have generated £407m, averaging £81m per season.
This includes the year to 2021 (MFC doesn't as it is not yet published) which has suppressed matchday revenues for Celtic by at least £20m.
Celtic peak turnover was £102m in 2018, when their wage bill was £59m. Even last season their wage bill was £52m.
In the last 10 published years Celtic have generated £702m, averaging £70m per season.
Celtic have Shareholder value of +£117m and have just £3m in loans. The accumulated P&L figure on their balance sheet is +£6m, despite the shocking Covid year.

Middlesbrough on the other hand are a basket case and much smaller.
Our Club has Shareholder Value of -£86m and this before the horrendous year of 2021 which has not yet been reported.
The Club owes £116m in loans/undertakings.
The accumulated P&L figure on balance sheet is -£207m.
Celtic Book Value is at least £203m greater than Middlesbrough.
Middlesbrough owe in loans at least £113m more than Celtic.
Celtic run within their means at worst. Middlesbrough have lost £207m to sit in the Championship.
In the last 5 published years, Middlesbrough have generated £280m, averaging £56m to include a PL season and two seasons of Parachute Payments. This does not include 2021 which will again be sub £20m.
Middlesbrough peak turnover was £121m in 2017, when the wage bill was £65m. This is the only year in the last ten where Middlesbrough's turnover was higher than Celtic's and where their wage bill was also higher.
In the last 10 published years, Middlesbrough has generated £387m, averaging £39m per season.
Celtic have generated substantially more in the last five years than Middlesbrough have in the last 10 years.

In the last 5 years, despite being swollen by PL and PP's, Celtic average turnover is £25m p.a. greater than ours.
In the last 10 years, their average turnover is £31m p.a. greater than ours and roughly double.
Last year (their absolute trough) their turnover was £42m greater, or more than triple ours.
Their wage bill has been well over £50m for 5 years, ours has only ever been above that once(in the last PL season). Our wage bill in the Eindhoven season was £38m.

Let's be absolutely clear, Celtic may not choose to blow us out of the water with a package, but they easily could.
Gibson may well be having a go, having a gamble. I hope all our supporters show up and support his ambition if so.

I have never for a minute said this lad should or will go to Celtic.
I actually hate Celtic (I like Rangers), but facts are facts.
Unless we are in the PL, they will have a much bigger wage bill because they can afford to. How they choose to spend that is up to them.
If we are in the PL then the Sky/Media money would mean that Celtic would likely have to win the Champions League to generate as much as if we got relegated in a season.

Cardiff and Zoophonic seem to get this. Others not so.
 
Diego said:
The Celtic meltdown is hilarious, this lad knows we are going places and can offer him more than Celtic are willing too. lovely stuff
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Nobody enjoys a meltdown amongst Celtic supporters more than me.
Their manager will be gutted.
 
www.glasgowtimes.co.uk

Riley McGree 'set to snub Celtic' in favour of move to English Championship outfit

AUSTRALIAN international Riley McGree is set to snub Celtic in favour of a move to Middlesbrough, according to reports.
www.glasgowtimes.co.uk www.glasgowtimes.co.uk
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AUSTRALIAN international Riley McGree is set to snub Celtic in favour of a move to Middlesbrough, according to reports.

The 23-year-old has spent the season on loan at Birmingham from Charlotte FC and has starred for Lee Bowyer's side.
His performances have caught the interest of Celtic and numerous other clubs south of the border.

Reports this week had suggested that Celtic had the deal tied up, but now talkSPORT say McGree will snub a move to Parkhead and join Middlesbrough instead.

McGree's loan deal ended in December and before that he had scored three goals in 30 games.

Australian international Riley McGree set to snub a move to #Celtic and join #Boro instead. Chris Wilder definitely being backed this window.
— Alex Crook ⚽️🎙 (@alex_crook) January 12, 2022
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Birmingham had hoped to keep the midfielder, but he now looks set to join their Championship rivals.

Arsenal striker Folarin Balogun has become Middlesbrough’s third January signing after joining the Sky Bet Championship club on loan for the remainder of the season.

The 20-year-old has made two Premier League appearances for the Gunners during the current campaign and scored twice in five Europa League outings last season.

Boro boss Chris Wilder told the club’s official website: “We’re delighted to get Flo in. He’s a player I’ve known about for a long time and we identified him as someone who could come in and improve us in the second half of the season.

“He has great movement, good pace, and he’s a natural finisher. We’re looking forward to working with him.”

England Under-21 international Balogun follows Brighton frontman Aaron Connolly and permanent signing Caolan Boyd-Munce to Teesside this month.

Boro, who have won five of their last six league games, currently lie in seventh place in the table just a point shy of the play-off places.
 
indeedido said:
It is always best to work with facts if possible.

It's worth noting nobody has posted that this lad will go to Celtic, or should go.
All that was stated was that Celtic have way more financial muscle than Middlesbrough unless we are in the Premier League. This is indisputable fact.

In the last 5 published years, Celtic have generated £407m, averaging £81m per season.
This includes the year to 2021 (MFC doesn't as it is not yet published) which has suppressed matchday revenues for Celtic by at least £20m.
Celtic peak turnover was £102m in 2018, when their wage bill was £59m. Even last season their wage bill was £52m.
In the last 10 published years Celtic have generated £702m, averaging £70m per season.
Celtic have Shareholder value of +£117m and have just £3m in loans. The accumulated P&L figure on their balance sheet is +£6m, despite the shocking Covid year.

Middlesbrough on the other hand are a basket case and much smaller.
Our Club has Shareholder Value of -£86m and this before the horrendous year of 2021 which has not yet been reported.
The Club owes £116m in loans/undertakings.
The accumulated P&L figure on balance sheet is -£207m.
Celtic Book Value is at least £203m greater than Middlesbrough.
Middlesbrough owe in loans at least £113m more than Celtic.
Celtic run within their means at worst. Middlesbrough have lost £207m to sit in the Championship.
In the last 5 published years, Middlesbrough have generated £280m, averaging £56m to include a PL season and two seasons of Parachute Payments. This does not include 2021 which will again be sub £20m.
Middlesbrough peak turnover was £121m in 2017, when the wage bill was £65m. This is the only year in the last ten where Middlesbrough's turnover was higher than Celtic's and where their wage bill was also higher.
In the last 10 published years, Middlesbrough has generated £387m, averaging £39m per season.
Celtic have generated substantially more in the last five years than Middlesbrough have in the last 10 years.

In the last 5 years, despite being swollen by PL and PP's, Celtic average turnover is £25m p.a. greater than ours.
In the last 10 years, their average turnover is £31m p.a. greater than ours and roughly double.
Last year (their absolute trough) their turnover was £42m greater, or more than triple ours.
Their wage bill has been well over £50m for 5 years, ours has only ever been above that once(in the last PL season). Our wage bill in the Eindhoven season was £38m.

Let's be absolutely clear, Celtic may not choose to blow us out of the water with a package, but they easily could.
Gibson may well be having a go, having a gamble. I hope all our supporters show up and support his ambition if so.

I have never for a minute said this lad should or will go to Celtic.
I actually hate Celtic (I like Rangers), but facts are facts.
Unless we are in the PL, they will have a much bigger wage bill because they can afford to. How they choose to spend that is up to them.
If we are in the PL then the Sky/Media money would mean that Celtic would likely have to win the Champions League to generate as much as if we got relegated in a season.

Cardiff and Zoophonic seem to get this. Others not so.
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I must apologise for having a soft spot for Partick Sizzle :rolleyes:⚽
 
indeedido said:
It is always best to work with facts if possible.

It's worth noting nobody has posted that this lad will go to Celtic, or should go.
All that was stated was that Celtic have way more financial muscle than Middlesbrough unless we are in the Premier League. This is indisputable fact.

In the last 5 published years, Celtic have generated £407m, averaging £81m per season.
This includes the year to 2021 (MFC doesn't as it is not yet published) which has suppressed matchday revenues for Celtic by at least £20m.
Celtic peak turnover was £102m in 2018, when their wage bill was £59m. Even last season their wage bill was £52m.
In the last 10 published years Celtic have generated £702m, averaging £70m per season.
Celtic have Shareholder value of +£117m and have just £3m in loans. The accumulated P&L figure on their balance sheet is +£6m, despite the shocking Covid year.

Middlesbrough on the other hand are a basket case and much smaller.
Our Club has Shareholder Value of -£86m and this before the horrendous year of 2021 which has not yet been reported.
The Club owes £116m in loans/undertakings.
The accumulated P&L figure on balance sheet is -£207m.
Celtic Book Value is at least £203m greater than Middlesbrough.
Middlesbrough owe in loans at least £113m more than Celtic.
Celtic run within their means at worst. Middlesbrough have lost £207m to sit in the Championship.
In the last 5 published years, Middlesbrough have generated £280m, averaging £56m to include a PL season and two seasons of Parachute Payments. This does not include 2021 which will again be sub £20m.
Middlesbrough peak turnover was £121m in 2017, when the wage bill was £65m. This is the only year in the last ten where Middlesbrough's turnover was higher than Celtic's and where their wage bill was also higher.
In the last 10 published years, Middlesbrough has generated £387m, averaging £39m per season.
Celtic have generated substantially more in the last five years than Middlesbrough have in the last 10 years.

In the last 5 years, despite being swollen by PL and PP's, Celtic average turnover is £25m p.a. greater than ours.
In the last 10 years, their average turnover is £31m p.a. greater than ours and roughly double.
Last year (their absolute trough) their turnover was £42m greater, or more than triple ours.
Their wage bill has been well over £50m for 5 years, ours has only ever been above that once(in the last PL season). Our wage bill in the Eindhoven season was £38m.

Let's be absolutely clear, Celtic may not choose to blow us out of the water with a package, but they easily could.
Gibson may well be having a go, having a gamble. I hope all our supporters show up and support his ambition if so.

I have never for a minute said this lad should or will go to Celtic.
I actually hate Celtic (I like Rangers), but facts are facts.
Unless we are in the PL, they will have a much bigger wage bill because they can afford to. How they choose to spend that is up to them.
If we are in the PL then the Sky/Media money would mean that Celtic would likely have to win the Champions League to generate as much as if we got relegated in a season.

Cardiff and Zoophonic seem to get this. Others not so.
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How on earth do we pass the FFP rules ???
 
Magicman70 said:
With all that is going on at the moment I can't believe Gibson isn't absolutely watertight regarding FFP .
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In terms of Pre Tax P&L MFC lost £35.6m in year to 2020, made £2m to 2019 and lost £6.4m in year to 2018.
There was no visible equity injection to offset, but there was a legal revaluation of fixed asset Training ground which wiped out the 2018 loss.
Then there are the other FFP allowances.
All spend on Academy, Community and Womens football are deductible. Over the course of the three seasons the deductibles will be multi millions.
It is such a murky world of FFP reporting I have no idea whether there is something else still which could offset the combined losses further.
Similarly I’m not sure how Tax impacts the FFP position.
I have been critical of Gibson’s decisions from 2016-20, but I’m absolutely sure that if he is making a noise about FFP for other clubs, he will be within guidelines for MFC.
 
Interesting thread!

Is McGree any good? Never seen him play.

On the financials, I think the top end of the SPL and the top half of the Champo have always been pretty close in financial and footballing status - if Celtic and Rangers dropped into the English leagues with their current squads, they'd probably end up top ten in the Championship. I mean we tried it once by signing Celtic's entire squad, their manager and some other SPL stars and finished 11th and 12th.

The difference is that if we got promoted and spent five years in the PL, we'd be one of the 30 richest clubs in the world. Premier League clubs - and the potential of that - can blow anybody in world football out of the water financially, except for the handful of European superclubs.
 
jonny_greenings_sock said:
Interesting thread!

Is McGree any good? Never seen him play.

On the financials, I think the top end of the SPL and the top half of the Champo have always been pretty close in financial and footballing status - if Celtic and Rangers dropped into the English leagues with their current squads, they'd probably end up top ten in the Championship. I mean we tried it once by signing Celtic's entire squad, their manager and some other SPL stars and finished 11th and 12th.

The difference is that if we got promoted and spent five years in the PL, we'd be one of the 30 richest clubs in the world. Premier League clubs - and the potential of that - can blow anybody in world football out of the water financially, except for the handful of European superclubs.
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EPL clubs revenue is much higher than even the two a Scottish giants.
Outside the PL they have much bigger budgets than our Championship clubs.
Rangers are back to over spending and building up debt again. Celtic are much more prudent, much to the irritation of their fans. They are going to have to spend more, or they won’t win the two horse race up there and can’t progress to unlock the Euro lottery.
 
indeedido said:
All that was stated was that Celtic have way more financial muscle than Middlesbrough unless we are in the Premier League. This is indisputable fact.
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we've just offered him terms that Celtic couldn't match, I dispute it and so does his bank manager

Regardless of all the above facts about revenue and profit and debts. Our business strategy is and can be very different than Celtics for one key reason, we can improve our revenue 5 fold by promotion, they can't. So we can build debt, because we have scope to reduce it. Celtic can't build our kind of debt, it would send them under as they have no strategy or opportunity to reduce it.

So back to where this discussion started, we can compete with them financially even in our worst financial state in 35 years. As I pointed out earlier, even without parachute payments we paid a transfer fee equal to celtics biggest ever (Rhodes 9m), and we've paid more in wages without parachute as well (Bolasie 60k). The second point about the Scottish league is pretty difficult to argue with and ultimately will have also played a part in Riley's head being turned. It's a poor league and has been for 30 years.

I accept that Celtic have a healthier balance sheet and current higher income......but as has been proven, that really isn't the whole story when looking at spending power, in fact in this case and others it was fairly irrelevant.
 
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We got some big hitters off our wage bill in the Summer

Britt
Fletch
Bolasie
Kebano

At least £150k/week there - we only seemed to spend about 40% of that in the Summer.

The English Championship is a higher standard than the SPL - average wages will be treble in the EngChamp. OK the Old Firm are a class above but the opposition they play is relevant.
 
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BoroMart said:
we've just offered him terms that Celtic couldn't match, I dispute it and so does his bank manager

Regardless of all the above facts about revenue and profit and debts. Our business strategy is and can be very different than Celtics for one key reason, we can improve our revenue 5 fold by promotion, they can't. So we can build debt, because we have scope to reduce it. Celtic can't build our kind of debt, it would send them under as they have no strategy or opportunity to reduce it.

So back to where this discussion started, we can compete with them financially even in our worst financial state in 35 years. As I pointed out earlier, even without parachute payments we paid a transfer fee equal to celtics biggest ever (Rhodes 9m), and we've paid more in wages without parachute as well (Bolasie 60k). The second point about the Scottish league is pretty difficult to argue with and ultimately will have also played a part in Riley's head being turned. It's a poor league and has been for 30 years.

I accept that Celtic have a healthier balance sheet and current higher income......but as has been proven, that really isn't the whole story when looking at spending power, in fact in this case and others it was fairly irrelevant.
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Your selective opinions and estimations have proven absolutely nothing.
Despite conclusive proof that Celtic's turnover and wage bills dwarf ours and has done for over a decade, other than the one season we actually played in the PL, you still think you know best. It is laughable.
It is like saying because we possibly could play in the PL, we can sustain wage bills and contracts accordingly. We can't.
On promotion to the PL in 2016 the pre tax loss was £32m from that one season. We had been losing eight figure sums per season the prior years. You can't sustain the wage bill outside the top flight, it is as simple as that.
Did you see the look on Gibson's face at full time against Brighton?
Our Club is a financial basket case. In making losses every year we have built debt that would ordinarily lead to a business being unable to continue trading. Gibson can't indefinitely do this before compromising the wider Group. Nor should he, or be expected to.
You say we can build debt based on the potential of revenue upside, yet we have had one PL season in the last 13.
This is very much my position in May 2016, when we were actually in the PL and under-invested to stay there. The gamble to get there was much bigger. and from our current position it still is. It remains a mystery to me why Gibson with looser PL rules around FFP losses did not invest then rather than after relegation.
We have debt at the highest level we have ever had it and that is before the 2021 books are published which will be grim from a P&L perspective.
I am guessing - that is all it is - that Steve has injected equity in the year to 2021 to offset losses to keep us FFP compliant. He did this back in 2012 with a crucial £50m injection to convert external debt to equity, but that was to actually keep the club going, as the Banks would not support the existing loans. At that time our debt was £21m to Banks and External lenders and £71m to Gibson O'Neill. The Shareholder deficit was £73m before his injection and we have lost a further £90m since then.
If a one season in four huge loss making push for promotion pays off and the PL turn their usual blind eye then happy days, but not if you are losing vast sums of money already in the otherwise unsuccessful years around it.


The point was whether we have the same financial clout as Celtic outside the PL. We don't. They have chosen not to match an offer we have pushed the boat out with. It is either a massive gamble on promotion by Gibson, or he has injected equity we haven't seen declared yet, or there are big sales in June agreed, or all.

Another point was that the Old Firm are not a backwater and it is understandable why some players might be attracted to the large crowds, big club feel and significant annual European competition.
Nobody at any time has said that one particular player should or will sign for Celtic over Boro.
Because one might just not be doing so proves nothing about financial clout.
 
Redwurzel said:
We got some big hitters off our wage bill in the Summer

Britt
Fletch
Bolasie
Kebano

At least £150k/week there - we only seemed to spend about 40% of that in the Summer.

The English Championship is a higher standard than the SPL - average wages will be treble in the EngChamp. OK the Old Firm are a class above but the opposition they play is relative.
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Surprised at you Redwurzel.
We lost £36m pre tax in year to 2020. Our revenue will be even lower in 2021 and even if wages are a lot lower we will have lost in excess of £20m again last season.
Revenue will struggle to break £25m this season, so having a conceptual bit left to spend of what we couldn't afford last year makes no sense.
English Championship wages are categorically not treble Celtic's wages bill. Riley was not contemplating signing for Hibs, Aberdeen or St Mirren, he was approached by Celtic.

I am not defending Celtic - I hate them - but the argument that they are not significantly financially stronger than Championship Clubs is ridiculous.

I am also loving the optimism that Wilder is generating, the energy being created, the backing he is getting.
I hope Gibson gets the numbers backing him in our stadium and am delighted his appointments and decisions have been so good since 2020.
 
indeedido said:
Your selective opinions and estimations have proven absolutely nothing.
Despite conclusive proof that Celtic's turnover and wage bills dwarf ours and has done for over a decade, other than the one season we actually played in the PL, you still think you know best. It is laughable.
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Riley McGree signing for us is all the proof needed, anything else is opinion

It may dwarf ours, but turnover is only part of the equation, it needs a certain myopic view to ignore the ultimate evidence of us gazzumping celtic and thinking that one fact (their turnover) is all facts.

indeedido said:
It is like saying because we possibly could play in the PL, we can sustain wage bills and contracts accordingly. We can't.
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We can take more risk than Celtic. Over a long period of time, of course we can't continue losing money, but 'speculate to accumulate' has long been a business strategy open to us and closed to celtic. But this discussion wasn't about sustaining (a long term strategy), but about an individual player (a tactical approach to transfers). So although you are right about long term, it has zero relationship to what we have been discussing, our ability to compete in the transfer market for Riley McGree...my stance has of course been proven by us gazzumping them and yours has been debunked.

indeedido said:
Our Club is a financial basket case. In making losses every year we have built debt that would ordinarily lead to a business being unable to continue trading.
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But, and here is where you lack the full picture, a) most of our debt is to steve gibson, it only becomes an issue of he calls that debt in; b) there is a strategy to reduce that debt which is both attainable, and sustainable.

indeedido said:
You say we can build debt based on the potential of revenue upside, yet we have had one PL season in the last 13.
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That's true, and based on some poor decisions, however, what is the point in the existance of this club and business if it doesn't seek to attain premiership football. It's not exactly **** or bust though, because inevitably we will return to the prem. Be it now or in 10 years. We've had half of the last 30 in the prem, you can slice and dice it how you want, we have all the tools to be a prem team and traditionally more than half our history has been in the top flight. It just takes some on and off field strategy to get there.

indeedido said:
The point was whether we have the same financial clout as Celtic outside the PL. We don't.
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The point was if we could compete with Celtic in the transfer market, we can, we have did , we won

indeedido said:
Another point was that the Old Firm are not a backwater
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I said the scottish league is a backwater, that's pretty undeniable, you can try all you like to claim Hearts, St Mirren or Dundee United are a decent standard but any objective footballing mind will agree they wouldn't even survive in league One. These are the kind of teams a player will play against for the vast majority of time in a celtic or rangers shirt. Celtic played 51 games last year Rangers 5 times (boring), and 6 against Milan/Lille/Prague in the Europa League with 1 win.

40 out of 51 games were a complete gimme.
 
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