Social Media Hijacked by the Left

[Smoggle]

ah someone picked up on my geek joke, I mean everyone thinks that J Edgar Hoover invented the Hoover, so why not have the dam named after him

Aye but they’re a bunch of herberts!

 

[Soutra]

ah someone picked up on my geek joke, I mean everyone thinks that J Edgar Hoover invented the Hoover, so why not have the dam named after him

I read some conspiracy theory the other day which suggested JEH didn't die of a heart attack, rather he was murdered to stop him investigating the Watergate break in.

 

[BoroMart]

I read some conspiracy theory the other day which suggested JEH didn't die of a heart attack, rather he was murdered to stop him investigating the Watergate break in.

they do enjoy a good conspiracy over there

 

[Cambsred]

nationalised utilities is not a socialist view, it's a pragmatic strategic that you need key services to be owned by the state. I mean even the most batshit of right wing countries like the US don't privatise everything.

The J Edgar Hoover Dam was built, and is owned and operated by the government to provide primarily power to southern nevada. Does that make the US socialist? No



This isn't a socialist policy, it's a liberal policy. Liberal and socialist are not the same thing, although it really helps the tories that people can muddle the two concepts, despite them being diametrically opposed on lots of key points


This isn't exclusively a socialist policy, in fact in a pure socialist society the objective isn't to make more wealth as an individual, so it could certainly be argued as being against socialist principles

Our implementation is a socialist capability, but it's being eroded into a moderately socialist one. I say moderately as other moderate socialist and even centrist countries have state health care


They're largely not. They are only perceived as left of centre if you believe that free market capitalist economies is the natural order and the norm and therefore anything to the left of it is left. Too few people recognise that free market economics is a man made society and targetted to support certain individuals. We are social creatures, we survived the eons through mutual cooperation, even if via the selfish gene rather than true empathy. The natural order for our species is socialism to a large extent not capitalism.


In studies, with blind tests, most of the above are supported by the vast majority of the country. That's because most people when they don't have the media in their ear want a better, fairer, more empathic society, I mean there are always going to be 1% sociopaths who don't, but most people do.

what are examples of just left of centre policies?

 

[Jonny Ingbar]

Dorries' suggestion is straight out of the Trump playbook i.e. an absolute lie intended to prejudice people's view of left wing politics.

Now I get politics is all about painting the opposition in an unfavourable light, it's always been that way, but it's this type of politics that is the worst kind - the kind that has no connection to fact or reality at all.

It's absurd and actually quite frightening that this can happen, without adequate challenge or redress.

 

[Scrote]

what are examples of just left of centre policies?

You'll have to define "centre" before anyone can answer that.

My centre is probably your left.

My left is probably your hard left.

The Overton window has shifted so far right in the past two decades that without a relative reference there isn't any point trying to discuss political geography.

The key point (as alluded to by Boromart, above) is that Liberal and Socialist (old Labour) are very much opposed on most things.

Liberalism is Conservatism with a social* conscience - much as Green is Conservatism with with an ecological conscience. Neither Liberal or Green are "left" in any political compass that puts Socialism on the left.


*and even this isn't related to socialism - just the idea that the "needy" should be helped. Liberalism is generally much more "woke" than any true socialism - which is why there are schisms in the Labour Party.

 

[Johnny Vincents Motorbike]

You'll have to define "centre" before anyone can answer that.

My centre is probably your left.

My left is probably your hard left.

The Overton window has shifted so far right in the past two decades that without a relative reference there isn't any point trying to discuss political geography.

The key point (as alluded to by Boromart, above) is that Liberal and Socialist (old Labour) are very much opposed on most things.

Liberalism is Conservatism with a social* conscience - much as Green is Conservatism with with an ecological conscience. Neither Liberal or Green are "left" in any political compass that puts Socialism on the left.


*and even this isn't related to socialism - just the idea that the "needy" should be helped. Liberalism is generally much more "woke" than any true socialism - which is why there are schisms in the Labour Party.

teaching *sun readers - 'A level' real politics.

round of applause .sir.

although, i would have 'Green' as Liberals with an ecological conscience.

 

[Alzi]

“Left wing echo chamber” hardly. Lots of lively debate and a range of views across the political spectrum.

There is another Boro board which might be more to your liking, though I suspect you’re already signed up.

 

[Cambsred]

teaching *sun readers - 'A level' real politics.

round of applause .sir.

although, i would have 'Green' as Liberals with an ecological conscience.

A knowledge of a certain subject doesn't make you superior. The sun readers comment seems poor form.

I come on here and take a lot of benefit from others knowledge where perhaps I'm in a blind spot.

I always regarded social/ Liberal politics as sitting just left of centre. It would appear it depends on whos overton window is being used.

My impression of the board is it is more left leaning, however as has been discussed maybe it is sitting centrist in that regard and I need to review where that line sits.

Every day is a school day.

 

[Scrote]

i would have 'Green' as Liberals with an ecological conscience

I'd argue that Greens will happily throw much of Liberalism under the bus in pursuit of their (small "c") conservatism.

 

[Cardiffdaffs]

I'd argue that Greens will happily throw much of Liberalism under the bus in pursuit of their (small "c") conservatism.

Why do you think that. Can’t agree. Greens will always lean towards left in my experience of working with the party in Brighton.

 

[Scrote]

I always regarded social/ Liberal politics as sitting just left of centre. It would appear it depends on whos overton window is being used.

The Overton window just describes where the centre is in terms of the prevailing mood amongst the populace i.e. what is politically acceptable at any given time.

it doesn't desxribe the left or right -ism of party policy or political descriptors.

Fascism is right wing even if you're in late 1930s Germany and it's the current centre-point under Hitler. Marxism is left wing even if you're in 1960s Cuba and it's the current centre-point under Castro.

Left and Right aren't always helpful either - they come from the seating arrangements in the French Parliament.

Political compasses are better but you really need a political sphere (or even a higher-dimensional object) to really track -isms against each other.

Which is why people will always try to position similar sounding ideas next to each other e.g. liberal/libertarian or deliberately confuse quite different politics e.g. Socialism/Communism

 

[Scrote]

Why do you think that. Can’t agree. Greens will always lean towards left in my experience of working with the party in Brighton.

As shown by the last election.

Oh...

There will be left-leaning greens, of course, but the party itself is no friend of the Socialist left. If anything it's a convenient conscience-cleanser for those who don't want to be tarred with voting Conservative (or even Liberal) but won't countenance voting for a leftist Labour.

 

[free_pint]

The greens I'd say are quite centrist, with occasional left leaning policies. When Caroline Lucas was heading them up they were much more left leaning. I'd say currently very much a Liberal centrist party now after a lot of leftists left them to join Corbyns Labour and then didn't return. Could see them taking up a fair bit of the vote share next election in safe Tory seats, being the 'alternative vote'.

 

[Cardiffdaffs]

As shown by the last election.

Oh...

There will be left-leaning greens, of course, but the party itself is no friend of the Socialist left. If anything it's a convenient conscience-cleanser for those who don't want to be tarred with voting Conservative (or even Liberal) but won't countenance voting for a leftist Labour.

Not going to get into a discussion. I just know you are incorrect certainly with the few greens in the party I have worked with and they are no way like you describe. I am not a green myself I quickly add But some of them are more left of Centre than me and I view myself very much as a left leaning individual.

 

[Scrote]

I just know you are incorrect certainly with the few greens in the party I have worked with and they are no way like you describe.

Which is why it's a lot more complicated than just Left vs Right and why each discussion needs to be accompanied by the definitions being used for that conversation.

You just have to look at the US where everything left of out-and-out Disaster Capitalism is regarded as COMMUNISM - there is no nuance which means it's very difficult to discuss ideas.