r00fie1
Well-known member
Interesting how the US almost immediately denies any connection between Ukraine and the incident.
The end?
- Thread starter borolad259
- Start date
It’s almost as if allies might communicate at the highest levels.
Ukraine would be mad to be involved with a terrible act like this, it really doesn’t sound like something they would do or something that would help their position in any way. Russia has frequently attacked civilian infrastructure, but it’s the personal nature of the attack that shocks more and that is the MO of several other groups that consider Russia an enemy. It doesn’t stop Zakharova, Medvedev et al spouting their anti-Ukrainian bile, just in time for another suspected mobilisation…
As an aside, I’ve been to that mall as it is walking distance from where I first lived over there, I find it incredibly sad as it’s not just somewhere in a news story. Putin is evil but so are the perpetrators of such an atrocity.
Ukraine would be mad to be involved with a terrible act like this, it really doesn’t sound like something they would do or something that would help their position in any way. Russia has frequently attacked civilian infrastructure, but it’s the personal nature of the attack that shocks more and that is the MO of several other groups that consider Russia an enemy. It doesn’t stop Zakharova, Medvedev et al spouting their anti-Ukrainian bile, just in time for another suspected mobilisation…
As an aside, I’ve been to that mall as it is walking distance from where I first lived over there, I find it incredibly sad as it’s not just somewhere in a news story. Putin is evil but so are the perpetrators of such an atrocity.
It's definitely not the Ukrainian MO at all to target civilians. They go to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties where possible.
Whoever was responsible, and whatever the complexities and nuance to the story, ordinary folks going out for the night were killed. Just horrendous.
Whoever was responsible, and whatever the complexities and nuance to the story, ordinary folks going out for the night were killed. Just horrendous.
Nero80
Member
Definitely wont be anything to do with the Ukrainians. As said above its not their MO. Also they would lose so much support from countries and people in general, for lowering themselves to Russian standards. So far, Ukraine has kept the moral high ground in my opinion by not deliberately targeting civilians. Long may this continue.
Decent_Left
Well-known member
Linthorpe_Exile
Well-known member
According to Grauniad reporting:
"The FSB security service said “all four terrorists” had been arrested while heading to the Ukrainian border, and that they had contacts in Ukraine."
I'd be amazed if Ukraine avoided 'retaliation'
"The FSB security service said “all four terrorists” had been arrested while heading to the Ukrainian border, and that they had contacts in Ukraine."
I'd be amazed if Ukraine avoided 'retaliation'
Ingleby_Flash
Well-known member
The Ukes are targeting refineries, not crude oil production so that shouldn’t drive up crude oil prices. It should impact the availability and cost of refined products which will directly impact Russia’s economy and war effort. A very valid war aim. The Americans are full of shĩt.
Russia will use this as anti-Ukraine propaganda, they already are in the statements that have been put out, it’s a tragic event but Russia has previous and even have been suspected of staging deadly events against their own population to suit an agenda with the Moscow apartment bombings.
I highly doubt Ukraine are involved, certainly not at a high level… but until we know more I’d be unwise to state something with absolute certainty because terrible decisions inevitably get made during brutal wars, but this just doesn’t feel right.
Let’s see how it plays out with the arrested suspects, but I don’t trust anything Russia says, I’ve seen first hand the utter drivel they spew in their media.
This may shed some light on things. Apparently my mate got home and instead of going to bed was put on 4 hours notice of war (I mean Europe, not Uklraine).
Anyway, about terrorism
"Terror
Nobody has missed that Russia had a bout of terror in a concert hall in Moscow.
The old communist party approved band Piknik of Soviet Vintage nick was supposed to play there.
An unknown amount of highly trained operatives purportedly from ISIS (they have taken responsibility) attacked the place.
It is believed that there was between 6 and 11 assailants, and Russia has arrested 11 people, unclear if any of them had anything to do with the attack though.
For being in Russia the security was incredibly shoddy, and the metal detectors at the venue had been turned off for reasons unknown.
It is here good to know that the US had warned Russia that they had intel in regards of an upcoming ISIS attack in Moscow.
"Putin" himself had scoffed at this.
What we know is that the attack happened, 90 people died (and counting), ISIS did it (we have intel proving that), and we know that for some reason Russia basically let it happen to themselves.
We also know the why of the attack, that was due to Russia bombing Syria and ISIS positions there, at least partially.
Now, here are some somewhat well founded things that can be speculated upon.
We believe that the removed security and slow response was due to some sort of internal power conflict in Kremlin.
Both FSB and GRU staid out of it, until after the attack was well done, and we know they knew that it was gonna happen since the US told them what would happen, where and when...
Something is truly odd now with FSB and GRU playing games that is not in line with the rest of Kremlin, but what the reason is for that is probably so Russian that we will never understand it.
Now, let us for a second look at ISIS.
They are a Sunni movement, an off-shoot of the Sunni Wahabitic movement out of Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia is the main sponsor of the movement, both with arms and finances.
I am pretty certain that this will be tracked back to Saudi Arabia as a payback for the Houthi's being backed by Russia.
And what Saudi Arabia does is at least known by the CIA.
We shall see where this lands at.
Fallout, the initial thought in Europe was that this was a false flag attack to either go nuclear in Ukraine, or to attack Europe outright.
And the initial Russian comments did indeed track with this narrative to a T.
In fact, the comments given was so fast that they seemed pre-prepared and rehersed.
So, the button was pushed in Europe to prep for an imminent war.
While you where sleeping in Europe air defence units moved out to pre-selected spots, radars turned on, and fighter jets and sigint/radar planes flooded the borders towards Russia with shoot-to-kill orders against any approaching planes.
Obviously this level of readiness is extremely dangerous, and is avoided at all cost by everyone, but this time it was warranted due to the initial responses by Russia.
As the confusion started to spread in Russia over who did it, and the narrative changed to the usual rubbish, the shoot-to-kill order was dropped, but the rest remained.
Russia obviously noticed that Europe had enacted the rapid response system and did not like the possibility of a shooting war with Europe over something that was out of their control.
And they called and talked, and war was avoided by showing strength, Russians only talk in case they are about to be bonked over the head.
Russian terrorism
Few have noted that Russia committed yet another war crime by almost blowing up Ukraines largest remaining hydroelectric dam.
If they had succeeded a huge number of Ukrainians would have been killed, and it would have caused yet another ecocide.
It was reported that this would have also destroyed the cooling system at Enerhodar NPP, but this is not true.
The pumps are above the top water line that would have happened, and there is ample equipment to ensure that the water lines would have kept operational.
Beyond that there is a full pool of cooling water that would last for 14 days, and another 48 hours in the reactors.
Also, the reactors are in safe mode, and on top of that each of the reactors are completely slagged in a manner that lower peak possible temperature if a total failure occur.
This means that they would at worst be able to break out of the core, but that the safe containment under would hold the core contained.
In other words, the worst that can happen in Enerhodar NPP is that it will be a mess to clean up the safe containment barriers.
How, when and other details is not possible for me to talk about it since they are classified for the next 75 years."
Of course he knows how the Ernerhodar plant was made safe.... that's what he was sent to Ukraine to do in the first place, before he became more embroiled.
On Sullivan and refineries.
"Jake Sullivan
The softboiled cannon named Jake Sullivan got it into his head to try to force Ukraine into stopping the wildly successful attacks on Russian oil refineries.
A less reliable Pundit got hold of this somehow, and the news exploded.
He was obviously wrong about everything beyond the Jake Sullivan thing.
This caused everyone and his aunt in Europe to start screaming at sleeping US Senators, Representatives, Biden heemseelf, and the New York Transit Authority (Both the band and the Authority)...
Then roughly 100 000 NAFO Fellas pilled in screaming bloody murder.
The US and the Biden administration had to wake up and do some damage control as fast as possible to fix that particular shitfest that it had caused themselves.
First an official comment was issued that Ukraine can do what it pleases with Russia.
Then they begged Kyiv to issue a statement stating that Jake Sullivan never said what he indeed said, against promising that Ukraine could do any divine work upon Russian oil that they wish.
So, Kyiv issued that statement.
But, to reinforce it Budanov like a machine bombed the **** this night out of yet a new refinery, just to rub it in a bit.
From a EU standpoint von der Layen called Biden and told him that the US is welcome to have opinions if and when they start pulling their weight and help Europe in the upcoming war."
Anyway, about terrorism
"Terror
Nobody has missed that Russia had a bout of terror in a concert hall in Moscow.
The old communist party approved band Piknik of Soviet Vintage nick was supposed to play there.
An unknown amount of highly trained operatives purportedly from ISIS (they have taken responsibility) attacked the place.
It is believed that there was between 6 and 11 assailants, and Russia has arrested 11 people, unclear if any of them had anything to do with the attack though.
For being in Russia the security was incredibly shoddy, and the metal detectors at the venue had been turned off for reasons unknown.
It is here good to know that the US had warned Russia that they had intel in regards of an upcoming ISIS attack in Moscow.
"Putin" himself had scoffed at this.
What we know is that the attack happened, 90 people died (and counting), ISIS did it (we have intel proving that), and we know that for some reason Russia basically let it happen to themselves.
We also know the why of the attack, that was due to Russia bombing Syria and ISIS positions there, at least partially.
Now, here are some somewhat well founded things that can be speculated upon.
We believe that the removed security and slow response was due to some sort of internal power conflict in Kremlin.
Both FSB and GRU staid out of it, until after the attack was well done, and we know they knew that it was gonna happen since the US told them what would happen, where and when...
Something is truly odd now with FSB and GRU playing games that is not in line with the rest of Kremlin, but what the reason is for that is probably so Russian that we will never understand it.
Now, let us for a second look at ISIS.
They are a Sunni movement, an off-shoot of the Sunni Wahabitic movement out of Saudi Arabia, and Saudi Arabia is the main sponsor of the movement, both with arms and finances.
I am pretty certain that this will be tracked back to Saudi Arabia as a payback for the Houthi's being backed by Russia.
And what Saudi Arabia does is at least known by the CIA.
We shall see where this lands at.
Fallout, the initial thought in Europe was that this was a false flag attack to either go nuclear in Ukraine, or to attack Europe outright.
And the initial Russian comments did indeed track with this narrative to a T.
In fact, the comments given was so fast that they seemed pre-prepared and rehersed.
So, the button was pushed in Europe to prep for an imminent war.
While you where sleeping in Europe air defence units moved out to pre-selected spots, radars turned on, and fighter jets and sigint/radar planes flooded the borders towards Russia with shoot-to-kill orders against any approaching planes.
Obviously this level of readiness is extremely dangerous, and is avoided at all cost by everyone, but this time it was warranted due to the initial responses by Russia.
As the confusion started to spread in Russia over who did it, and the narrative changed to the usual rubbish, the shoot-to-kill order was dropped, but the rest remained.
Russia obviously noticed that Europe had enacted the rapid response system and did not like the possibility of a shooting war with Europe over something that was out of their control.
And they called and talked, and war was avoided by showing strength, Russians only talk in case they are about to be bonked over the head.
Russian terrorism
Few have noted that Russia committed yet another war crime by almost blowing up Ukraines largest remaining hydroelectric dam.
If they had succeeded a huge number of Ukrainians would have been killed, and it would have caused yet another ecocide.
It was reported that this would have also destroyed the cooling system at Enerhodar NPP, but this is not true.
The pumps are above the top water line that would have happened, and there is ample equipment to ensure that the water lines would have kept operational.
Beyond that there is a full pool of cooling water that would last for 14 days, and another 48 hours in the reactors.
Also, the reactors are in safe mode, and on top of that each of the reactors are completely slagged in a manner that lower peak possible temperature if a total failure occur.
This means that they would at worst be able to break out of the core, but that the safe containment under would hold the core contained.
In other words, the worst that can happen in Enerhodar NPP is that it will be a mess to clean up the safe containment barriers.
How, when and other details is not possible for me to talk about it since they are classified for the next 75 years."
Of course he knows how the Ernerhodar plant was made safe.... that's what he was sent to Ukraine to do in the first place, before he became more embroiled.
On Sullivan and refineries.
"Jake Sullivan
The softboiled cannon named Jake Sullivan got it into his head to try to force Ukraine into stopping the wildly successful attacks on Russian oil refineries.
A less reliable Pundit got hold of this somehow, and the news exploded.
He was obviously wrong about everything beyond the Jake Sullivan thing.
This caused everyone and his aunt in Europe to start screaming at sleeping US Senators, Representatives, Biden heemseelf, and the New York Transit Authority (Both the band and the Authority)...
Then roughly 100 000 NAFO Fellas pilled in screaming bloody murder.
The US and the Biden administration had to wake up and do some damage control as fast as possible to fix that particular shitfest that it had caused themselves.
First an official comment was issued that Ukraine can do what it pleases with Russia.
Then they begged Kyiv to issue a statement stating that Jake Sullivan never said what he indeed said, against promising that Ukraine could do any divine work upon Russian oil that they wish.
So, Kyiv issued that statement.
But, to reinforce it Budanov like a machine bombed the **** this night out of yet a new refinery, just to rub it in a bit.
From a EU standpoint von der Layen called Biden and told him that the US is welcome to have opinions if and when they start pulling their weight and help Europe in the upcoming war."
Druss_The_Legend
Well-known member
Generally I don't wish ill on people, but right now I wish Putin and his "pals" would take a long walk off a very high and very short windowsill.
I don't know what to make of this terror attack in Moscow and it is again sad that innocent people have been killed again. I think it was a genuine attack but I also think it suited Russian leadership(at least they thought they might be able to use it politically) which just shows the Russian leadership lack of empathy towards it's citizens.
The longer this awful war goes on the more countries on the fringes are getting closer to being involved and causing world instability.
Apparently there was some kind of navy skirmish between the Philippines and China, then the war in the middle east, raised tensions between North and South Korea and Europe as a whole on the brink of war. It feels like the opening stages of World war 3 right now and it would only take a small over reaction or mistake to bring World war 3 in full.
Russia needs to be kicked out of Ukraine, Putin needs to be kicked out of a window and the USA needs to just grow a pair and start acting like the super power they are supposed to be by bringing some stability to the world order.
Rofesleg
Well-known member
What do you mean, interesting in what way?
If they had intel that it wasn't Ukraine then why wouldn't they share that?
It would be more 'interesting' if they knew it wasn't Ukraine but said nothing.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
Presumably the answer to that question is the ‘false flag’ reference in Borolads post above. Russia manufacturing an excuse to escalate the war?
I have to read these posts. I cannot stop myself.
But it is exactly posts like this that I am scared of reading. I say this every, single time: my worry is that this conflict escalates into something else altogether.
It sounds as though we are edging closer, particularly last night.
Muttley
Well-known member
Yep, it sounds like the jets were in the air "loaded for bear".
Putin is a gangster by habit and he always got what he wanted through intimidation and violence.
As ever when dealing with a bully the worst thing you can do is back down. We've tried that and it was always going to end this way unless Putin was deposed from within.
As someone who lived through the height of the Cold War I would simply advise you that there is nothing you can do about it and worrying about it won't help you. (Easy said). The comfort that I took and I can share is that even gangsters and bullies don't want to die. They make you think that they do but they are as scared of mortality as you or I. The difference is that they don't care about your life or mine, or indeed anyone else's but they do care about their own skin. Very much.
I know exactly what you mean
I spent a lot of time in the Bardo Museum and on the beach at Sousse while working out there. Makes it even more real.
Hope they string the cowardly barstuards up or riddle them with bullets.
We should be grateful for those making the sacrifices now, in Ukraine, so that we might not have to. It's incredibly inconvenient for me personally that my mate has become so invested and involved in it. But he did so with a pretty brutal understanding of what will happen if people like him do not go to war with Putin's mob. He didn't have to stay there. In fact, he was more or less forcibly removed from there by his own country's military higher ups (the Chief of staff doesn't like him and saw him as a threat .... politics). But he took the offer of Ukrainian citizenship to stay there and see it through ... albeit in a different way. He was still commanding operations until just a couple of weeks ago. I can't begrudge him doing it ... he does it so that I might not have to pick up a gun myself.
Hap
Well-known member
I hate to say it, but it seems to be on an unstoppable trajectory towards European war.
Russia’s capability is hard to gauge. They do have influence, in India and Asia, not to mention America. They may be tougher to dislodge from Ukraine than imagined.
That said; Nuclear capability and population aside, an economy comparable with Italy in size can only finance so much war.
Russia’s capability is hard to gauge. They do have influence, in India and Asia, not to mention America. They may be tougher to dislodge from Ukraine than imagined.
That said; Nuclear capability and population aside, an economy comparable with Italy in size can only finance so much war.
Ukraine is no longer alone. And if Budanov keeps sytematically picking aprt their oil refining industries, Russia's problems will only get bigger before they can carry out their wider plan. But make no mistake, that plan doesn't stop with Ukraine.