Three points debacle

zorro_mfc said:
But we didn’t fail to fulfil a fixture though as we did play it so it was at best postponed something that happens every season for a myriad of reasons and nothing is ever done.

btw making us play the game was a double punishment as well.
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Exactly. Not sure why this is so difficult to comprehend. And I find it baffling that some of our supporters are seemingly okay with it!
 
davidmills said:
No it wasn’t
There was no rule at that time
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Yes there was. In order to postpone a fixture ‘just cause’ had to be shown. In the absence of just cause the penalty of a points deduction was available to the Premier League.

Whataboutery doesn’t help either. We unilaterally decided to postpone without having got permission in writing. It was negligent. That’s not being ok with it, it’s simply an objective analysis of what happened.
 
Whataboutery is certainly relevant, seeing as other clubs have been deducted points for various offences and have had the punishment rescinded... apart from the other footballing backwater that is Wigan. I see a pattern.
 
Adi_Dem said:
Whataboutery doesn’t help either.
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It’s not whataboutery either its is stating a fact

you are the one using whataboutery as in “I doubt we’d have won many more anyway” the fact is THAT WE DID DO ENOUGH to win 42 points that season.
 
Michael_Vronsky said:
Whataboutery is certainly relevant, seeing as other clubs have been deducted points for various offences and have had the punishment rescinded... apart from the other footballing backwater that is Wigan. I see a pattern.
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Yep spurs 12 pts deducted and got them ALL back on appeal.
 
zorro_mfc said:
It’s not whataboutery either its is stating a fact

you are the one using whataboutery as in “I doubt we’d have won many more anyway” the fact is THAT WE DID DO ENOUGH to win 42 points that season.
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No, I’m expressing a view that the decision galvanised a club that had looked dead and buried for weeks. That’s not whataboutery. Pointing at the punishment of other clubs when compared to our punishment is whataboutery. And it’s irrelevant.
 
Adi_Dem said:
No, I’m expressing a view that the decision galvanised a club that had looked dead and buried for weeks. That’s not whataboutery. Pointing at the punishment of other clubs when compared to our punishment is whataboutery. And it’s irrelevant.
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So if we were “so banged to rights” then why did the finest legal mind in the land think we had a case then to risk his reputation on such a formality.

or was George simply doing it for the cash
 
zorro_mfc said:
So if we were “so banged to rights” then why did the finest legal mind in the land think we had a case then to risk his reputation on such a formality.

or was George simply doing it for the cash
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Carmen was a criminal barrister who was successful because of his effect on juries. Instructing him for an admin law case with no jury was another awful decision.

If a club is willing to pay then the lawyer will do his best for them and I’m sure he did. I didn’t say it was cut and dried either. I said that failing to fulfil a fixture without approval in advance and in writing was a ridiculously bad decision and we got ultimately what we deserved.
 
Adi_Dem said:
Carmen was a criminal barrister who was successful because of his effect on juries. Instructing him for an admin law case with no jury was another awful decision.

If a club is willing to pay then the lawyer will do his best for them and I’m sure he did. I didn’t say it was cut and dried either. I said that failing to fulfil a fixture without approval in advance and in writing was a ridiculously bad decision and we got ultimately what we deserved.
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😀

Adidem you must be a good lawyer with so many words that could easily have been paraphrased as “cash”
 
Adi_Dem said:
Yes there was. In order to postpone a fixture ‘just cause’ had to be shown. In the absence of just cause the penalty of a points deduction was available to the Premier League.

Whataboutery doesn’t help either. We unilaterally decided to postpone without having got permission in writing. It was negligent. That’s not being ok with it, it’s simply an objective analysis of what happened.
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If we were told we had to determine just cause for ourselves how could we have got permission in writing? Unless you don't believe the club's account, in which case fair enough. But I've seen nothing to suggest it's false.

You make it sound like the club just called it off on a whim. I'm pretty sure their account of trying to get guidance is correct. The fact said advice was not particularly clear maybe should have set alarm bells ringing and maybe they were naïve. But I do believe they tried to act in good faith and they're certainly not the only party at fault. As such a 3 points seems ridiculously harsh.

How other clubs have been treated is relevant. A precedent was set with how they dealt with us. They then wheeled back on this when other, better connected clubs broke the rules. There's a reason Gibson started cultivating relationships in the FA/premier league after the event.
 
festa5 said:
If we were told we had to determine just cause for ourselves how could we have got permission in writing? Unless you don't believe the club's account, in which case fair enough. But I've seen nothing to suggest it's false.

You make it sound like the club just called it off on a whim. I'm pretty sure their account of trying to get guidance is correct. The fact said advice was not particularly clear maybe should have set alarm bells ringing and maybe they were naïve. But I do believe they tried to act in good faith and they're certainly not the only party at fault. As such a 3 points seems ridiculously harsh.

How other clubs have been treated is relevant. A precedent was set with how they dealt with us. They then wheeled back on this when other, better connected clubs broke the rules. There's a reason Gibson started cultivating relationships in the FA/premier league after the event.
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I don’t agree. If I were advising them and the rules put the burden on clubs to determine ‘just cause’ then immediately the advice has to be not to postpone without confirmation in writing that the rule maker agrees with your assertion that the circumstances constitute ‘good cause’. The carry on that they had trying to get that answer should have served only to underline that advice. It was negligent. I don’t think I have ever suggested it was done on a whim. I simply say that it was a negligent decision, especially in the circumstances described in Gibson’s letter.

And the only other cases since that are relevant (to the whataboutery question) are any that involve late postponement on the basis of just cause. Anything else isn’t relevant because the circumstances aren’t the same.
 
I think it was a case of anger getting the better of Gibson’s judgement at the time. Carmen could easily have said there is a chance you will lose this as the point of law was thin to bring a case against the FA. Gibbo chose to go head and lost 3 points and Carmen’s huge fat fees
 
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