Can you admit that Southgate is doing a great job yet?

I have argued a similar point about the best team not winning with my brother.
My side is that the best team always wins simply because football is decided on who scores the most goals and therefore that is how you should judge who is the best team.
We may have had more chances missed penalties etc etc but ultimately you are judged on goals scored not % of possession or shots on target.If your players cant score or are unable to stop the other team from scoring more then you then regardless of anything else they are better than you.
You dont get anything for missing loads of chances it just means your strikers not good enough on the day.
 
Redpete said:
I have argued a similar point about the best team not winning with my brother.
My side is that the best team always wins simply because football is decided on who scores the most goals and therefore that is how you should judge who is the best team.
We may have had more chances missed penalties etc etc but ultimately you are judged on goals scored not % of possession or shots on target.If your players cant score or are unable to stop the other team from scoring more then you then regardless of anything else they are better than you.
You dont get anything for missing loads of chances it just means your strikers not good enough on the day.
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Exactly right. The arguments yesterday reminded me of first matches this season under wilder when fans were saying we were the best team but kept losing.
 
I don’t see the point in changing manager when the next Euros are only 18 months away. We have a chance in the tournament. If everyone agrees it’s Southgate’s last tournament, win or lose, then who knows, maybe he will go out on a high. But even if he doesn’t, he’s done a very decent job these last 6 years and I don’t think many would have done any better to be honest.
 
Glover_elbow said:
What absolute nonsense. How can you hammer a team without getting a shot on goal. If you can't get a shot on goal then your completely ineffectual.
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By "they" he means France clearly. He's saying if France didn't have a shot on goal.

think boro managed to beat Man City years ago doing exactly that. Sun Jihai i think scored the OG.
 
Sexpom said:
I disagree about Brazil and the current France squad, for me we had the best squad at this World Cup.
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We have a very very average set of defenders, a lack of CM options and quality, and only one striker. The midfield for example is a step up from our last WC (Rice, Bellingham, Henderson > Deli Ali, Lindgard, Henderson. But if you've got Rice and 33 year old Henderson in your first choice midfield you don't have anywhere near the best CM in the world).

Players like Maguire, Pickford, Shaw, and Rice would not make it in the french or brazil squads. The only place we have a lot of quality is in the winger/10 positions, even then most of those players are still moderately inexperienced like Saka and Foden.
 
BoroMart said:
We have a very very average set of defenders, a lack of CM options and quality, and only one striker. The midfield for example is a step up from our last WC (Rice, Bellingham, Henderson > Deli Ali, Lindgard, Henderson. But if you've got Rice and 33 year old Henderson in your first choice midfield you don't have anywhere near the best CM in the world).

Players like Maguire, Pickford, Shaw, and Rice would not make it in the french or brazil squads. The only place we have a lot of quality is in the winger/10 positions, even then most of those players are still moderately inexperienced like Saka and Foden.
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Id say Rice is better than Fred surely? Shaw might be in with a shout too for Brazil. They were playing a right footed centre back there v Croatia (albeit due to injury i think).

I think Brazil and Argentina have similar issues to ourselves. Outstanding players in some areas but average in others. I think our squad, on average is at least comparable to those sides if not better.

I'd say England, on paper, probably had the second best squad. Unfortunately France had the best. Not by much, but they had a number of players who have experience of winning a world cup too. That's a massive psychological advantage. Experience counts for a lot. Particularly in tournament football. Southgate understands that, hence some of his selections. But if he'd picked a 36 year old striker some would've been going mental.
 
BoroMart said:
We have a very very average set of defenders, a lack of CM options and quality, and only one striker. The midfield for example is a step up from our last WC (Rice, Bellingham, Henderson > Deli Ali, Lindgard, Henderson. But if you've got Rice and 33 year old Henderson in your first choice midfield you don't have anywhere near the best CM in the world).

Players like Maguire, Pickford, Shaw, and Rice would not make it in the french or brazil squads. The only place we have a lot of quality is in the winger/10 positions, even then most of those players are still moderately inexperienced like Saka and Foden.
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As I said, as a full squad we had the best one IMO, starting 11s are a whole different conversation.
 
BoroMart said:
We have a very very average set of defenders, a lack of CM options and quality, and only one striker. The midfield for example is a step up from our last WC (Rice, Bellingham, Henderson > Deli Ali, Lindgard, Henderson. But if you've got Rice and 33 year old Henderson in your first choice midfield you don't have anywhere near the best CM in the world).

Players like Maguire, Pickford, Shaw, and Rice would not make it in the french or brazil squads. The only place we have a lot of quality is in the winger/10 positions, even then most of those players are still moderately inexperienced like Saka and Foden.
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Rice has arguably been out best player (and still only 23) future midfields will be built around him and Bellingham. Big move is on the cards for him. Think he would be every squad of the teams you mentioned.
 
Sexpom said:
As I said, as a full squad we had the best one IMO, starting 11s are a whole different conversation.
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I don't agree full or starting IMO, close but not quite on either count.

We are now in there expecting to be challenging for every tournament, and it will come good as long as we don't do anything stupid like rip up the formula and bring some radical new approach in
 
SE4 Red said:
Rice has arguably been out best player (and still only 23) future midfields will be built around him and Bellingham. Big move is on the cards for him. Think he would be every squad of the teams you mentioned.
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He wouldn't be in the teams though, good technique and tactical brain but he struggles with mobility, you can play around him. He's had a great campaign though, of course.
 
BoroMart said:
I don't agree full or starting IMO, close but not quite on either count.

We are now in there expecting to be challenging for every tournament, and it will come good as long as we don't do anything stupid like rip up the formula and bring some radical new approach in
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Agree with your point about tearing it up, but perhaps a fresh approach could work?
 
BoroMart said:
He wouldn't be in the teams though, good technique and tactical brain but he struggles with mobility, you can play around him. He's had a great campaign though, of course.
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Rice struggles with mobility or Bellingham? They are both very mobile.
 
Sexpom said:
Agree with your point about tearing it up, but perhaps a fresh approach could work?
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Pointless risk, despite going out at the quarters, we still improved in performances. It's touching distance now, pointless changing direction.
 
Sexpom said:
Rice struggles with mobility or Bellingham? They are both very mobile.
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Rice doesn't really have much in the way of pace or acceleration, he covers a lot of ground but does it at a static pace.

I'm not saying he's a poor player, he isn't, but he isn't currently world cup winner level of quality, Look at recent midfielders that have won the world cup, Kante, Schweinsteiger, Iniesta, Busquets, Pirlo, Gilberto Silva, Viera etc. That's the level you are looking for to win and Rice isn't at that level, I doubt his career will peak at that level either IMO. Of course some of those weren't the most mobile, but they made up for that with different level technical and tactical skills.
 
Our "rubbish" defence cost over £200m. Henderson is a premier league and champions league winning captain, Rice and Bellingham will both be going for £100m in the near future. Phillips probably would've been in there at times if he hadn't been injured all season (£50m). I think Mount is overrated by Southgate but there was Maddison who I think must've still been carrying an injury because he should've been on ahead of Mount. He's been excellent for a while now.

I don't think they are the best in the world and they are our weakness but they aren't that dreadful.

All the squads have weaknesses, it's the nature of international football. France have fewer weaknesses and they'd be even stronger without their injuries, but they do still have them. We saw how Saka had Upamecano and Hernandez inside out all evening.
 
Nano said:
Our "rubbish" defence cost over £200m.
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No one said they were rubbish. I personally said they were very average and I'll stand by that. What a club plays for a player does not prove their quality. I mean every man and his horse knows that Maguire was way over priced. We have a defence that is very limited, lacks pace and top level quality.
Nano said:
Henderson is a premier league and champions league winning captain
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He's also long in the tooth and no longer a guaranteed regular for his club. Starting just a 1/3rd of their games this season.

Nano said:
Rice and Bellingham will both be going for £100m in the near future
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One is decent and one is one of the best prospects in the world, but he's not the finished article yet.

Nano said:
I think Mount is overrated by Southgate but there was Maddison who I think must've still been carrying an injury
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Maddison is excellent in the league, when fit, but yes he got injured first training session, and by the france game had only had about 5 training sessions with his team mates, so was obviously not going to get on, he's barely trained with them let alone played competitively.

Nano said:
All the squads have weaknesses, it's the nature of international football. France have fewer weaknesses and they'd be even stronger without their injuries, but they do still have them. We saw how Saka had Upamecano and Hernandez inside out all evening.
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Well at least we agree on this France have a better squad even with the injuries which I think helped them in a way. Pogba is a great individual but a loose cannon. Saka did have them on toast, but the ref didn't do his job giving him the fouls he earned.
 
Glover_elbow said:
What absolute nonsense. How can you hammer a team without getting a shot on goal. If you can't get a shot on goal then your completely ineffectual.
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It's not nonsense unless you're thick, you can have majority of possession, win most tackles, have shots go off target for the majority of the game and absolutely be the better team on the pitch but not score, and still lose. Utter idiocy to say the only measure that matters of the better team is who goes through, loads of times the better team has not been the one to progress. More shots on target doesn't mean you are the better team.
 
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ThatFragranceGuy said:
It's not nonsense unless you're thick, you can have majority of possession, win most tackles, have shots go off target for the majority of the game and absolutely be the better team on the pitch but not score, and still lose. Utter idiocy to say the only measure that matters of the better team is who goes through, loads of times the better team has not been the one to progress. More shots on target doesn't mean you are the better team.
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It's extremely rare the best team loses. France were the better team they know how to convert their chances in big games that's a skill.
 
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