Ex Footy Legs
Well-known member
But Fry is just a much better defender which is the MOST IMPORTANT THING! And fry is comfortable on the ball….I’d argue as comfortable as lenihan (!!!)
Fry is better than leninhan
- Thread starter Ex Footy Legs
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wilkos_perm
Well-known member
I totally agree that Fry is a much better player from what we've seen of Lenihan so far. Lenihan hasn't got near the level that Fry was at last night. The requirement for leadership in the side was definitely genuine, and bringing Lenihen in made sense but you have to be an amazing leader to get in ahead of someone with much better quality.
indeedido
Well-known member
I’ve seen us leak a lot of goals this season with him as this leader.
In my opinion he is impulsive, dives in to things and is caught out of position.
I see him as surprisingly weak in the air and have seen him physically dominated.
Moreover I just do not see this passing ability he supposedly has.
As cover for Fry at CB and on a free then fine he is good cover for a back three.
As main man at the back I don’t see it.
Fry was absolutely excellent last night.
I couldn’t care less what Blackburn fans think of Lenihan, nor do I place too much in what Mowbray has done.
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
i take your point about structure, they had leadbitter and clayton in front, but they were still quicker better defenders
Smog On The Medway
Well-known member
Fry with Lenihan’s leadership and shithousery would be perfect.
indeedido
Well-known member
Serio
Seriously where has he shown leadership to date???
wilkos_perm
Well-known member
Yep i think if you're stuggling a little for form it's very difficult to give any real leadership. Hopefully we'll start to see signs of what we were expecting soon
Expat Smoggie
Well-known member
It’s difficult to choose between the two if you’re just looking at attributes however Fry is first on the team sheet now because he’s better looking lol 
and keeps clean sheets!
and keeps clean sheets!
Andy_W
Well-known member
He's not at fault for others' individual errors, or poor referee decisions, and we're going to concede goals we're playing possession/ attacking based 3-5-2, especially agaisnt good sides.
Every player has strengths and weaknesses, Fry is good in the air, but he is not good under pressure, not that quick and doesn't appear to be much of an organiser or leader, but some of these things should improve. Fry has struggled in some games, just like every defender we've had in the last 5 years has struggled, it normally happens against good sides/ top players, Fry's not played those yet, this year, in this side. We know what he's about though, like I say, I really rate Fry as for his defending, and think we play the ball out from the back better when he's not there. There are pro's and cons, and to me they're very close, but just think Lenihan suits our system better, and anything we lose, we will gian far more through not losing the ball as often.
It's different now mind, we can play slightly different tactics, as the long ball can now work sometimes, as we have Muniz as a target. We need to support him better mind, but we never even had that option for the 5/6 games prior, and we had Chuba before that who's not as good at that as Muniz. It's not like we can play balls over the top either, as not many teams are really pressing onto us.
For who we played previous, and who we had as targets up front, Lenihan was the better choice, I see it a little closer now, but still think Lenihan would get the nod. Like I say though, I'd possibly put Fry RCB, as he's too good a defender to not be playing and we could potentially use Dijksteele elsehwere.
Fry was excellent agaisnt Sunderland, at defending, and rightly man of the match, but he still launched the ball far too often, when it was not necessary. It's like he gets too excited when he wins the ball, and then just thinks his job is done, it's not, not in this team, we need to get the ball, and keep it. Fry's passing stats agains Watford and Sheff Utd were 67% and 60%, in the 34-45 mins he played, that's not good enough.
Lenihan's got the best passing stats of any of our players, also got 3 MOM awards on who scored (WBA, Sheff Utd and Reading), a couple of very good teams and one other who we should have won. He also got one of the top average ratings (his rating also took a hit because of the Red card agianst QPR but he had to go for the ball there, we got caught out and ended up taking one for the team).
It's similar to the Steffan Roberts debate, Steffen has 73% pass completion, Roberts 43%. Roberts looks a very, very good keeper, but needs to give the ball away less. Steffan's not done a lot wrong, and is excellent at retaining the ball.
It doesn't matter what you think or what I think, the general consensus says Lenihan is good, the stats back this up and he's very will suited to a side like ours. Widler, Mowbray and various assistants and coaches both know far more than any of us, and the stats nerds will have far more in depth analysis than what we do. I don't think CB is set in stone, but would prefer Fry to be playing on the right, that we we get the benefit of both, then if one or the other is unavailible then we can change to suit. Those two can't really play any other positions, but the two who they could be ahead of at RCB could help elsewhere.
indeedido
Well-known member
Lenihan is not good in the air, awful under pressure, slow and where has he shown leadership; rather impulsive mistakes like rashly rushing v West Brom
I noticed him really struggle against Kane and Ronaldo. Only one of the two players has been linked with the PL; Lenihan couldnt even go for free.
So you prefer Fry playing overlapping CB needing to carry the ball much more often, rather than Lenihan who you reckon is so much more assured on the ball and a much better passer. Fry by the way played alongside Clarke who had an awful first half at least against Sunderland.
Not remotely interested in MOM awards from "who scored".
What general consensus?
Fry is the better central defender, Dijksteel is the better ball carrier and much faster at RCB.
Lenihan is decent cover, arrived free like Smith.
Smog On The Medway
Well-known member
Yes, I should have said his vocalness, if that’s a word, we’re very quiet at the back when he’s not there.
Andy_W
Well-known member
Lenihan has more aerials won per game than Fry, and has played against better opposition? Our only quick CB is Dijksteele, the rest are a similar pace.
Fry hasn't gone anywhere, and there have been no bids by the looks of it, why wouldn't he have been snapped up in the last 3 years? If he were to go it would likely be to a lower level side, who effectively try and lump it forward (we're not set up for this, and it didn't really work in previous years when we tried it). Similar scenario to Gibson I suppose.
I think most were expecting Lenihan to sign a new contract, he was their captain after all and had been there years. He'd obviously want to be playing every week and likely isn't good enough for the premiership, in a footballing side (never said he was), but I don't think Fry is good enough for a defensive/ lump ball prem side either (if he was he would possibly be at one, but he'll get better, so it's good to keep him).
I don't want to be critical against Man U as they're a great side and it was a great result, but let's be honest/ objective, we didn't deserve to win, they just couldn't hit a barn door (their xG was over 4), and we scored from a handball. They had 30 shots and 6 on target, including a penalty and woodwork etc.
Fry nearly (should have) cost us a goal against Man U early doors, in the confusion with the keeper and then wasn't marking anyone for many of their chances (Ronaldo wasn't the only one playing). Ronaldo still had quite a few chances, the penalty, the overhead kick etc. Fry tried to play a daft offside for their goal, and clearly is not the same Ronaldo as even a few years back.
Kane had a goal ruled out for offside (after he got away from Fry at the corner), the offside was close, to say the least, had that counted it would probably been game over, but Spurs were pretty **** (we nullified them well). Again though, good result.
Not saying Lenihan would have handled Man U or Spurs better, as he wouldn't, no championship defence could, even our Karanka defence would have struggled, like it did when we got in the prem.
Nah, I didn't say I would want him overlapping (not much anyway), I'd rather he just stuck tighter, and let Lenihan go from the middle (but we don't even need to do this much), or we just press up the pitch in a line. We don't need to overcommit the back three now we have better wingers both sides,m but it is easier to to with LCB and RCB, especially aginst teams with one up front.
We had to do it more with Dijksteele last year as we had nothing on the left, so the left tucked in and across, and we shifted over a bit, so Dijksteele could get up more with Jones and Crooks. We had to abandon this a bit, when we got sussed out. Teams can't block the right now, like they did last year, as it gives acres to Giles, who has already been killing teams. We should be playing wider both sides, there should be plenty of space in the middle for the back three to push on as a unit, and spread the play/ pass out as necessary (and they have done).
Clark had a tough game as they kept putting it in the channel behind Giles, it's going to happen (I don't want this to stop, as Giles is worth it), it's not going to be easy for anyone playing there. They were going to do that even more with Stewart, Mowbray even said so.
I don't pay much attention to the MOM awards either, was just making a point. But they are stats based, and independent, so whilst you may not pay any attention to things like that, the rest of the professional football world does.
The general consensus of thousands of Blackburn fans who had Lenihan for years (opinions are better over time), two managers, coaches etc. The consensus on here will be different of course, but 80% of the forum can't look beyond results, and there's a 1000 things which contribute to that.
I'd rather have Dijksteele at RCB than any of our choices if we do need him to press on (but he's good, quick cover too), but the only thinking by letting him out of there is if he could maybe do a job elsewhere, especially when we're tiring in games, which is really hurting us. It would be a square peg round hole scenario, so Wilder won't want that, which is fine. If we don't get this midfielder in I can see us possible going to a back 4, or some variation of that, we can't carry on with no CM subs.
I'm happy with whoever starts out of Lenihan/ Fry at CB, with the current squad, it's good that they can battle it out, they should both get better for it, but it won't be great for continuity. We'll retain the ball better with Lenihan and Steffan though, and probably have better organisation. It may lead to one or two additional goals going in, it also might not, but I would expect us to gain far more than that, by having more of the ball (and thus the opposition having it less), and us creating more chances (assuming we do something with the possession).
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
Fry is definitely quicker than lenihan no question
Big_Nothing
Well-known member
I'm with Willow here.
Fry is the better defender. I've seen Lenihan get smashed by Dike and outpaced by quicker players when better positioning was needed.
He does play it out a lot better than Dael though.
At the moment with our midfield as it is, has to be Dael. We just look top vulnerable otherwise.
I also really like Dijksteel on the right of the three but his positioning can be poor. Still not convinced that Mcnair getting up is all that more effective than Dijksteel doing it, Mcnair is a better footballer with a better delivery but AD seems to run into spaces that open up more room for Jones and links up with Crooks and Jones better as a three.
TheWolfman
Well-known member
Exactly this. It shouldn't be a negative having that many good centre backs. The problem for me is the same throughout the squad and its consistency and fry is capable of being outstanding and then next week he can be bullied by a run of the mill championship striker. He has to become outstanding more often.
Same for jones, dijksteel etc they are capable at times.
Andy_W
Well-known member
I agree with what Willow said too largely, but it's not the midfield conceding possession early on, it's punting balls. We do give it away more when we tire mind, or find it harder to find space to receive the ball. We need to fix this.
The thing is, for the games Fry didn't play, he would have been punting it up, against better sides than Sunderland, and up against stronger threats than Simms on his own, "supported" by anonymous four-foot Roberts. Punting it against good sides, when we had no Muniz, would have led to us playing a lot worse and creating a lot fewer chances, and having less of the ball, allowing more opposition chances. It's fair enough being a 10% better defender (if he is, not saying he isn't) , but if you're defending 20% more of the big chances, against better players, that's going to hurt. The opposition can't score when we have the ball, and can retain it. No point looking good defending if you have to defend 20 balls into the channels every game, as they will get through, the better players at least. It's similar to how some keepers get made to look good, playing for **** sides, as they get 10 shots at them on target to save some, or 20 crosses to catch, and nobody has a go when they eventually score (rightly so). It doesn't necessarily mean they're better it could be that they've just had more opportunities to look better, especially against lone strikers who are not that great.
Being good at just one or two things is a very old way of thinking (just having defensive defenders, midfielders who can only pass, strikers who can only shoot etc), which is why now there's lot more of a push to get players who can do a multitude of things, overall the team should be better for it. It's worth sacrificing 10% if you gain 20% elsewhere, but you need to make the most of what you gain, or it's pointless (and you end up pointless).
Personally, I'd rather us be more attacking, especially now we have Muniz, and put games to bed. We should be playing to the style which suits the team, and the style geared up to having the most ball and chances. Fair enough we'll concede some chances, but we should create and score a lot more, as we're a good side. I don't really want to see us conceding 55% possession against promoted sides, at home, as against good sides and away it won't work.
I like the Dijk, Crooks and Jones trio, and that should still work well if we keep giving Giles the ball, as it should open up space, but we need to be able to switch play with effective passing across the pitch to make the best use of two good wingers. Or we just invite pressure and hope teams come onto us, so we can play long balls behind (I don't like the sound of this though, not with our lack of pace in the spine).
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TeessideCleveland
Well-known member
Fry was great on Monday - though not as good in other games this season
Lenihan has grown into a few games having not had great starts in them
Somebody said Lenihan played on the the right of a 3 at Blackburn - is that correct?
Lenihan has grown into a few games having not had great starts in them
Somebody said Lenihan played on the the right of a 3 at Blackburn - is that correct?
parmoboy
Well-known member
It seems obvious to me Steffen and Lenihan were brought in because Wilder wants us to play it out from the back.
That's all well and good but at this moment in time I'd feel more confident that we'll keep clean sheets having Roberts and Fry in the team.
Lenihan has improved since his first two performances but to be honest I'd still prefer to have Fry in that CB position, and Steffen just hasn't filled me with confidence at all in the games he's played in so far.
That's all well and good but at this moment in time I'd feel more confident that we'll keep clean sheets having Roberts and Fry in the team.
Lenihan has improved since his first two performances but to be honest I'd still prefer to have Fry in that CB position, and Steffen just hasn't filled me with confidence at all in the games he's played in so far.
Expat Smoggie
Well-known member
Actually I was impressed how Clarke got better after his poor start and yellow card. Maybe the yellow card woke him up.