I can't disagree with this either. Excluding the whole illegal war thing, in the main, things were pretty good during the Blair years. It wasn't perfect, I'd definitely prefer things to be further left, but it was a relative paradise compared to where we are now.
I was wrong about starmer
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I can't disagree with this either. Excluding the whole illegal war thing, in the main, things were pretty good during the Blair years. It wasn't perfect, I'd definitely prefer things to be further left, but it was a relative paradise compared to where we are now.
Emmersons_BrazillianDong
Well-known member
I've been wanting to say this for some time but it's cat nip for a lot of people.
I'm not going to get into the Iraq stuff but objectively in my lifetime the best we've ever had was under Blair. Would do anything for my kids to have the same benefits that I had growing up through New Labour
I'm glad that there are people like you who have the patience to point all of this stuff out on here Nano. I've had these arguments too many times now and I just can't be @rsed to do it anymore.
festa5
Well-known member
Blair and Brown were in the centre and Cameron wasn't far right.
Corbyn was more left wing and the Tories lurched further right.
I understand what you're saying but the evidence of recent elections doesn't back it up. In fact it seems to suggest the opposite.
To be honest I don't think either is true. Labour have shifted to the centre because the media sets the discourse and has determined that credible, electable governments are at the very least to the centre and the sheep believe it.
The Tories haven't lurched to the right because of labour. They've done it for lots of reasons. E.g. because Johnson showed them it was a winning strategy, because brexit "legitimised" a lot of right wing views, because their jingoistic members have more control over who their leader is etc.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
It’s a tough one isn’t it?
If Labour voters persuade enough people that voting for Starmer is just the same as voting Tory then I think Sunak, Hunt, Rees Mogg and co could well win the next election, may as well just have the real thing and all that.
After all, a few more food banks and a privatised NHS can’t do any harm.
If Labour voters persuade enough people that voting for Starmer is just the same as voting Tory then I think Sunak, Hunt, Rees Mogg and co could well win the next election, may as well just have the real thing and all that.
After all, a few more food banks and a privatised NHS can’t do any harm.
If you'd be happy with an ever so slightly less sh*tty sh*t sandwich than the sh*t sandwich that we already have then good for you.
Colgates_shaving_foam
Well-known member
The problem we have is that the sandwich we want isn't on offer, if we have to eat a sh** sandwich then yes, I would prefer the slightly less sh*tty sandwich.
It is far from ideal but as the new Mackem favourite would say, we are where we are.
We are where we are but we shouldn't be. I won't be eating any sh*t sandwiches. I won't vote Labour with that turd leading the party. I won't be voting at all.
HolgateCorner
Well-known member
This country has gone to hell in a handcart under the Tories and I don’t think a lot of people realise just how serious it is.
It isn’t a game any more with this lot, they are controlling key parts of a largely very poor and confused electorate with mind games and culture wars.
I‘m at the ‘anybody but the Tories’ stage, getting them out is more important than it has ever been particularly for the future of the younger generations and the type of country they will be able to live in.
Funky_Chicken
Well-known member
The Tories and Labour are two cheeks of the same backside - having said that every major politician is in cahoots with the world economic forum now so we’re all screwed anyway
It's a bit like saying Hitler was an effective leader, ignoring the dead Jews thing.
That's fair enough. I understand why you'd say that and I agree with a lot of it. I don't think that getting the Tories out has suddenly become a priority overnight. We've needed to get them out ever since they got in. I just don't think that Starmer's 'become the Tories to beat the Tories' strategy is the right way to do it.
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LowMoorBoro
Well-known member
I already know I won’t vote for the tories in any upcoming election, I haven’t however decided who I will actually vote for.
I haven’t heard anything from Labour yet that convinces me to vote for them.
I haven’t heard anything from Labour yet that convinces me to vote for them.
This is the problem. As things stand there isn't a party that I can vote for so I won't be voting.
Fair enough. That wasn't my intention, but I can see how it could be read like that. If Starmer wants to start an illegal war I'd call for him to get tried for war crimes too.
Andy_W
Well-known member
The manifesto does matter, or at least will matter.
What direction of travel? Moving from a far-right one, to a centre/centre-left one? That seems a good and logical direction to me.
I didn't like the direction of travel going from Blair to Cameron but since Brexit the direction of travel has been a hell of a lot worse, losing again will make it even worse.
I understand that you may not think that the talk "is not left enough", but that's all it is, it's talk, and keeping the press quiet, who are not on Labours side. Sure, some policies in the manifesto may not be "left enough", for what you or what I want, but I 100% understand the reasoning behind it, which you don't seem to want to accept.
When Starmer came in we had the most far-right government I've ever known, by a long way, and he's seen a lot of them off, with constant pressure applied to them, and very little of the mud thrown sticking on Labour. This is a good result, whether you want to accept it or not.
That far-right government were voted in on a massive majority, the country is largely right-leaning, steered by the press, as proven as the right win 2/3rds of the time, this is a fact, it's not up for dispute. That's the game we have to play.
The Tories or their ideology are not the only reason, Jesus, we're connected to the world and world events too
- We have a centre/ centre right electorate, they vote and they think they want centre/ centre right/ right things
- Public voted for Brexit, largely conned by the press, the press are not going anywhere, and neither are the people they con
- The above brought a far-right uprising
- We've had a pandemic, which we've not had something similar to in a 100 years (the cost of this is ludicrous)
- War in Ukraine, which is a massive problem, as the country fighting them is Russia, a major world energy supplier to our neighbours and main allies for trade (Tories have actually done ok on supporting Ukraine to be fair, with equipment at least)
- The above factors are massively contributing factors to inflation, energy prices, interest rates etc
- 2010 recession never helped either
Sure, the Tories have handled world events poorly, but none of the above would have been rosy for Labour either, for Corbyn or Starmer.
The world isn't a rosy place at the minute and certainly hasn't been for the last 3 years, it's in a hole, and our hole is bigger than most others due to brexit in 2016, we just started digging our hole earlier (and the people voted for shovels and burning ladders).
Maintain the status quo, of what, losing to the right/ far right? We've got a sinking ship, sailing to the Bahama's is not possible, there's a colossal repair job to do before we can even think about major positive changes.
You can't have a significant change of policy or approach, we tried that at the last two elections and it lost and also had brexit thrown in for good measure, all of which enabled the far-right uprising (a significant change to the right even). You have to stop the rot and bring in incremental change, but changes which will still allow you to retain power.
What you or I want is similar I expect, but you have to be realistic to the people who live in the UK and our media, we're not a left country, and won't be for a long time, if you don't cater for that you get far right.
I'm not sure how many times we have to explain it to you. It's like arguing with the Daily Mail. You just keep repeating things as fact that are not even close to being true. You have swallowed the right wing rhetoric fully.
1. We don't have a centre right electorate. That's not a fact at all. We have a FPTP system which elects right wing parties. The majority of the country aren't right wing. Already covered in Post 23.
2. The far right government were elected because of Labour's Brexit position. There was no widespread call for Tory economic/social policies. They barely even bothered with a manifesto. It was single issue election and Labour, assisted by Starmer, failed to choose a position on the issue.
3. Centrist isn't a direction. Left wing/Right wing are two different things. You can't be in the middle. If you are on the right, as we currently are then to get to the centre you have to go left. Standing still means you are still on the right.
4. Starmer has seen nobody off. He has done the same thing as a mannequin would have done. The opposition just keep shooting themselves in the face. Starmer gets no credit for that. He was just up against gross incompetence.
5. Of course we are connected to the World but all of the problems have been made worse by Tory ideology. It's not about the immediate term. It's the long term future of the people within this country. We failed to deal with the pandemic because we had destroyed the NHS. We failed with the cost of living because we have a system that allows energy companies to charge us extortionate amounts for our energy. We have expensive and terribly managed trains because we let private companies run it and take massive bonuses and salaries for being terrible at it. I could go on but I don't need to. We can't continue with the way we are doing things and expect them to change because the leader has a different colour tie. There's no competent way to carry out Tory ideology and expect to improve things. Change is what is needed and if Starmer can't even bring himself to suggest there is a better way of doing things then why do you have such faith that we will ever get there.
He doesn't need to say we need to make all these changes on day 1. He needs to set out a vision for a 5, 10, 15, 20 year roadmap of where we should be. If he doesn't have one then he's not going to make anything better for anyone that needs it.
