I was wrong about starmer

Nano said:
I'm not sure how many times we have to explain it to you. It's like arguing with the Daily Mail. You just keep repeating things as fact that are not even close to being true. You have swallowed the right wing rhetoric fully.

1. We don't have a centre right electorate. That's not a fact at all. We have a FPTP system which elects right wing parties. The majority of the country aren't right wing. Already covered in Post 23.
2. The far right government were elected because of Labour's Brexit position. There was no widespread call for Tory economic/social policies. They barely even bothered with a manifesto. It was single issue election and Labour, assisted by Starmer, failed to choose a position on the issue.
3. Centrist isn't a direction. Left wing/Right wing are two different things. You can't be in the middle. If you are on the right, as we currently are then to get to the centre you have to go left. Standing still means you are still on the right.
4. Starmer has seen nobody off. He has done the same thing as a mannequin would have done. The opposition just keep shooting themselves in the face. Starmer gets no credit for that. He was just up against gross incompetence.
5. Of course we are connected to the World but all of the problems have been made worse by Tory ideology. It's not about the immediate term. It's the long term future of the people within this country. We failed to deal with the pandemic because we had destroyed the NHS. We failed with the cost of living because we have a system that allows energy companies to charge us extortionate amounts for our energy. We have expensive and terribly managed trains because we let private companies run it and take massive bonuses and salaries for being terrible at it. I could go on but I don't need to. We can't continue with the way we are doing things and expect them to change because the leader has a different colour tie. There's no competent way to carry out Tory ideology and expect to improve things. Change is what is needed and if Starmer can't even bring himself to suggest there is a better way of doing things then why do you have such faith that we will ever get there.

He doesn't need to say we need to make all these changes on day 1. He needs to set out a vision for a 5, 10, 15, 20 year roadmap of where we should be. If he doesn't have one then he's not going to make anything better for anyone that needs it.
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He doesn't need to set out a vision for anything beyond the 5 year term he is trying to achieve. The manifesto is a covenant and must be achievable in 5 years.

By all means vote for who you want. A non tactical vote for anyone other than Labour raises the very real risk of a tory government. If you can live with that, fair enough, that's democracy. Just don't bleat after the fact.
 
Laughing said:
He doesn't need to set out a vision for anything beyond the 5 year term he is trying to achieve. The manifesto is a covenant and must be achievable in 5 years.

By all means vote for who you want. A non tactical vote for anyone other than Labour raises the very real risk of a tory government. If you can live with that, fair enough, that's democracy. Just don't bleat after the fact.
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Some people want genuine change and others just want their team to win. If you are happy with your team winning and nothing changing then don't bleat about it after the fact when **** all has changed and we still have a broken NHS, broken education system, food banks, widespread poverty, poor workers rights, no right to protest, high taxes, billions paid in subsidies and tax breaks to private companies, policies that benefit the wealthy etc.

Of course he needs to set out a vision. If he doesn't and all we have to go on is the nothing he can achieve in the next 5 years because it would scare people off to tell them we were going to spend money on public services then why would anyone vote for it? If he wants to fix the NHS, nationalise industries, reform education etc but can't achieve it before he's done x, y and z then he needs to tell us otherwise the only thing we can assume is that doing x, y and z are all he's ever going to do.
 
Nano said:
Some people want genuine change and others just want their team to win. If you are happy with your team winning and nothing changing then don't bleat about it after the fact when **** all has changed and we still have a broken NHS, broken education system, food banks, widespread poverty, poor workers rights, no right to protest, high taxes, billions paid in subsidies and tax breaks to private companies, policies that benefit the wealthy etc.

Of course he needs to set out a vision. If he doesn't and all we have to go on is the nothing he can achieve in the next 5 years because it would scare people off to tell them we were going to spend money on public services then why would anyone vote for it? If he wants to fix the NHS, nationalise industries, reform education etc but can't achieve it before he's done x, y and z then he needs to tell us otherwise the only thing we can assume is that doing x, y and z are all he's ever going to do.
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Want my team to win? I don't even like starmer. Its not about teams it's about voting based on what's in front of you, not what you wish was in front of you.

You may want real change. How will you go about achieving that? By having another tory government and showing starmer supporters they were wrong? All whilst people are dying as a result of tory ideology and policy.

You are just plain wrong about starmer publishing a10 year old vision. Politically that would be suicide. He will have that internally, he isn't going to share that.

Whilst this was a reply to you Nano, it's not me singling you out. I feel the same about everyone complaining that Labour are not for them.

Most of my scorn is saved for bumface who is prepared to ignore the sacrifice of millions of young men who fought to keep Britain free all for a childish principle.
 
Laughing said:
Its not about teams it's about voting based on what's in front of you, not what you wish was in front of you.
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This is where we might have our wires crossed because as far as I'm aware there is no option to vote for Labour today. There is no general election happening so at present we have the opportunity to make our points that we think that Starmer is going about things the wrong way while he still has time to change things. Once we come to election day we see what he has actually presented to us in the form of a manifesto and answers to questions he is asked and make our mind up about whether we support that or not. If we don't make the points now then when do we do it?

In a way it is like supporting Middlesbrough. In the build up to a match we can have different opinions on how we should play, what system, what formation, which players, is the manager good enough, do we have a chance of promotion etc. On match day we support the team that is put in front of us or we stop going. Match over, we ask questions and make our arguments again. Politics isn't that different. For want of a better analogy, Labour is my "team" and I am passionately against the way the team is set up. It is not playing the way I think it should be played. When Pulis was our manager winning didn't feel like winning because it was so hideous to watch. That's how I feel at the moment about Labour.

Of course I don't want a Tory victory but I don't think being the Tories is the only way to achieve victory. That tactic might work when the Tories are strong but when the Tories are at their weakest it is an opportunity to play the game the way you think it should be played which for Labour means appealing to Labour voters first and foremost. Swing voters are looking for someone else to vote for because the Tories have dug themselves such a hole. It would be bonkers to win a load of swing voters at the expense of losing the base. You can't take people for granted like that and expect them to be happy.
 
Nano said:
I'm not sure how many times we have to explain it to you. It's like arguing with the Daily Mail. You just keep repeating things as fact that are not even close to being true. You have swallowed the right wing rhetoric fully.

1. We don't have a centre right electorate. That's not a fact at all. We have a FPTP system which elects right wing parties. The majority of the country aren't right wing. Already covered in Post 23.
2. The far right government were elected because of Labour's Brexit position. There was no widespread call for Tory economic/social policies. They barely even bothered with a manifesto. It was single issue election and Labour, assisted by Starmer, failed to choose a position on the issue.
3. Centrist isn't a direction. Left wing/Right wing are two different things. You can't be in the middle. If you are on the right, as we currently are then to get to the centre you have to go left. Standing still means you are still on the right.
4. Starmer has seen nobody off. He has done the same thing as a mannequin would have done. The opposition just keep shooting themselves in the face. Starmer gets no credit for that. He was just up against gross incompetence.
5. Of course we are connected to the World but all of the problems have been made worse by Tory ideology. It's not about the immediate term. It's the long term future of the people within this country. We failed to deal with the pandemic because we had destroyed the NHS. We failed with the cost of living because we have a system that allows energy companies to charge us extortionate amounts for our energy. We have expensive and terribly managed trains because we let private companies run it and take massive bonuses and salaries for being terrible at it. I could go on but I don't need to. We can't continue with the way we are doing things and expect them to change because the leader has a different colour tie. There's no competent way to carry out Tory ideology and expect to improve things. Change is what is needed and if Starmer can't even bring himself to suggest there is a better way of doing things then why do you have such faith that we will ever get there.

He doesn't need to say we need to make all these changes on day 1. He needs to set out a vision for a 5, 10, 15, 20 year roadmap of where we should be. If he doesn't have one then he's not going to make anything better for anyone that needs it.
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I've swallowed nothing of the sort. I don't believe a word the right or right media say, but your big problem is there are ~14m people who do evidently, and they vote for it. You're naive to this media control, as you don't understand that so many people are naive to it, it's not changing until you remove the influence, which doesn't seem to be possible.

1) The UK keeps voting in right governments, and the most recent is effectively far right. What people say or think they are is irrelevant, it's who they vote for and what those who they vote for do. If people vote for the right, then it's fair to call them right, actions speak louder than words. We're in FPTP, this isn't changing, and parties who win elections don't want FPTP as it weakens their power.
2) The far right came about because of actions from 2010-2023. Labour lost in 2010, 2015, 2016 Brexit vote, 2017 and 2019, each time that was largely because people are susceptible to letting the press steer their views. As if you're blaming starmer for brexit, he was a staunch remainer, unlike JC. JC was running the show when the UK voted to leave, if Labour had controlled the press or had some reply to it then we wouldn't even be out.
3) Moving from the far right, to centre is a direction. Positionally it's neutral for what the people vote for.
4) Whatever, he's been around whilst 3 PM's either leave or lose. Cobyn didn't do a great job of seeing anyone off, he even lost to May who even the tories didn't like. At least Cameron left after the brexit embarrassment, and JC's supposed red wall was the main reason it lost. He let people vote against their own interests.
5) Don't disagree with most of that, but we need a few terms in power and gradual changes as too much too soon will stir up the media and then tories back in. Thee energy contracts are a joke.
 
Andy_W said:
I've swallowed nothing of the sort. I don't believe a word the right or right media say, but your big problem is there are ~14m people who do evidently, and they vote for it. You're naive to this media control, as you don't understand that so many people are naive to it, it's not changing until you remove the influence, which doesn't seem to be possible.

1) The UK keeps voting in right governments, and the most recent is effectively far right. What people say or think they are is irrelevant, it's who they vote for and what those who they vote for do. If people vote for the right, then it's fair to call them right, actions speak louder than words. We're in FPTP, this isn't changing, and parties who win elections don't want FPTP as it weakens their power.
2) The far right came about because of actions from 2010-2023. Labour lost in 2010, 2015, 2016 Brexit vote, 2017 and 2019, each time that was largely because people are susceptible to letting the press steer their views. As if you're blaming starmer for brexit, he was a staunch remainer, unlike JC. JC was running the show when the UK voted to leave, if Labour had controlled the press or had some reply to it then we wouldn't even be out.
3) Moving from the far right, to centre is a direction. Positionally it's neutral for what the people vote for.
4) Whatever, he's been around whilst 3 PM's either leave or lose. Cobyn didn't do a great job of seeing anyone off, he even lost to May who even the tories didn't like. At least Cameron left after the brexit embarrassment, and JC's supposed red wall was the main reason it lost. He let people vote against their own interests.
5) Don't disagree with most of that, but we need a few terms in power and gradual changes as too much too soon will stir up the media and then tories back in. Thee energy contracts are a joke.
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You've swallowed the rhetoric that only right wing governments are possible. Who do you think is pushing that agenda?

1. It was a single issue election. They didn't vote for right wing polices (there were none). They voted for Brexit.
2. I didn't blame Starmer for Brexit. I blame him (not only him of course, the whole Labour party) for Labour not having a coherent position/message on Brexit which allowed such a comfortable victory for Boris and co.
3. This is the big one that shows you don't understand. If you are driving east and you want to go north then you can't do it without turning left. If you continue without action then you are still going east. Starmer's is advocating for applying the brake, that is it. This is why centrism isn't a direction, it's doing nothing. Centrism doesn't exist, it's just where you end up if you go equally left and right. If you are already on the right then you have to move left to get back to the centre.
4. He was around while 2 PMs left (Boris and Truss). He didn't cause them to leave, Boris was thrown out after lying and partying and Truss was a slug that thought she could swim in a bucket of salt. By your metric Corbyn saw off Cameron and May. Already covered why Corbyn lost numerous times (Brexit) his policies were very popular but meaningless in the single issue election. Corbyn reduced a big Tory majority that they were expecting to get bigger due to his policies in the only election that was policy and not Brexit based in his time (all while his own party refused to back him).

You already know all this. You might think that appealing to the right will win some votes and you might be content that just winning is all that matters. You can't seriously believe, unless you are a Tory, that any of Starmer's policies will make things better.
 
Laughing said:
Want my team to win? I don't even like starmer. Its not about teams it's about voting based on what's in front of you, not what you wish was in front of you.

You may want real change. How will you go about achieving that? By having another tory government and showing starmer supporters they were wrong? All whilst people are dying as a result of tory ideology and policy.

You are just plain wrong about starmer publishing a10 year old vision. Politically that would be suicide. He will have that internally, he isn't going to share that.

Whilst this was a reply to you Nano, it's not me singling you out. I feel the same about everyone complaining that Labour are not for them.

Most of my scorn is saved for bumface who is prepared to ignore the sacrifice of millions of young men who fought to keep Britain free all for a childish principle.
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F*ck off.
 
You can’t do diddly if you don’t get into power, some so called socialists like to sit on the side and carp about a utopia that will never happen. Hopefully Keir will help Britain move back to where the majority want it to be, somewhere slightly left of centre.
 
Nano said:
You've swallowed the rhetoric that only right wing governments are possible. Who do you think is pushing that agenda?

1. It was a single issue election. They didn't vote for right wing polices (there were none). They voted for Brexit.
2. I didn't blame Starmer for Brexit. I blame him (not only him of course, the whole Labour party) for Labour not having a coherent position/message on Brexit which allowed such a comfortable victory for Boris and co.
3. This is the big one that shows you don't understand. If you are driving east and you want to go north then you can't do it without turning left. If you continue without action then you are still going east. Starmer's is advocating for applying the brake, that is it. This is why centrism isn't a direction, it's doing nothing. Centrism doesn't exist, it's just where you end up if you go equally left and right. If you are already on the right then you have to move left to get back to the centre.
4. He was around while 2 PMs left (Boris and Truss). He didn't cause them to leave, Boris was thrown out after lying and partying and Truss was a slug that thought she could swim in a bucket of salt. By your metric Corbyn saw off Cameron and May. Already covered why Corbyn lost numerous times (Brexit) his policies were very popular but meaningless in the single issue election. Corbyn reduced a big Tory majority that they were expecting to get bigger due to his policies in the only election that was policy and not Brexit based in his time (all while his own party refused to back him).

You already know all this. You might think that appealing to the right will win some votes and you might be content that just winning is all that matters. You can't seriously believe, unless you are a Tory, that any of Starmer's policies will make things better.
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Don’t you think his plans to invest in more nurses, education and green technology will make things better?
 
Laughing said:
Great argument, you might want to go and look at starmers manifesto policy. It makes for interesting reading
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Have I ever insulted you on here before Laughing? I don't think that I have. I can remember having a bit of a laugh with you and I can remember wishing you all the best when your daughter had been ill. You don't agree with me on Starmer. That's fine. I'm not sure why you think that having principles is childish. That seems pretty weird to me.
 
bumface said:
Have I ever insulted you on here before Laughing? I don't think that I have. I can remember having a bit of a laugh with you and I can remember wishing you all the best when your daughter had been ill. You don't agree with me on Starmer. That's fine. I'm not sure why you think that having principles is childish. That seems pretty weird to me.
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It isn't having principles that I am scornful about. It is standing by whilst there is a danger of tories further damaging our country. You spat your dummy about starmer, you don't care who wins the next election as long as its not starmer. That is childish.

As I said go and read the labour manifesto policies. You might find something you like.
 
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