Keir Starmer - FoM now a red-line

He said "Get Brexit done" a lot. Didn't matter what the question was. That was always his answer. That was enough to make loads of idiots vote for the Tories.
Yes and nobody questioned the detail did they and those who voted on such a loose promise (twice if you include the actual referendum) probably still won‘t care about the chaos it has caused, they probably blame the French for being awkward. Johnson just fooled them enough for them to trust him.
 
I'll look forward to a proper victory when the party ditches Starmer as leader and when all of the rest of those 'centrist' @rseholes f*ck right off too and The Labour Party becomes a party worthy of the name. I might vote for them again if that happens.
It's all about opinions mate, I've voted Labour in every GE and Local Council elections since I was old enough.

From Kinnock in 1987 to Corbyn in 2019 I've voted to return every Labour leader regardless even though at times I've had to hold my nose. I'll be doing exactly the same in 2023 or 2024.

The alternative is another Tory government.

Why others can't see this is beyond me but there you go.
 
It's all about opinions mate, I've voted Labour in every GE and Local Council elections since I was old enough.

From Kinnock in 1987 to Corbyn in 2019 I've voted to return every Labour leader regardless even though at times I've had to hold my nose. I'll be doing exactly the same in 2023 or 2024.

The alternative is another Tory government.

Why others can't see this is beyond me but there you go.
That's part of the problem for me mate. I won't vote labour again, just because that's what I've always done in the past. Starmer is taking the party in a crappy direction so he can whistle for it. Give me a proper left wing leader and they'll get my vote. Simple as that.
 
Calling folk who support him 'apologists' isn't helping.
I didn't say that. I asked if the apologists were now worried they had backed the wrong horse i.e. people on here who've made excuses about his lack of a public position being a smoke-screen for his real intent. Now he has made his intent known it isn't what those apologists said it would be. The argument that Starmer would pivot before declaring anything has been torpedoed. Labour are now in a ridiculous position whereby a new Tory leader can outflank them on Europe and FoM (as opposed to immigration).

But if people really do believe their lives and others will improve but being inside the EU then we need to discuss if they wouldn’t be better placed voting the Tories who are apparently softening towards a Swiss style deal
This is the problem. The Tories are now free to pivot and the press will go with them. SM & CU will be presented as a way out of the hole the country is in and the Tories will ride to victory at the next election. A lack of basic principles is political suicide for the left.

Unfortunately, to win the type of super majority required to overturn Brexit is going to mean the people of the UK continue to suffer the consequences.
Why would it require a super-majority when a straight 50/50 was enough for Brexit?

He needs to win back the northern areas . Going full remainer isn’t going to help him at all .
It isn't about going full remainer. It's about having a consistent position on aspects of the EU that weren't ever a part of 'getting Brexit done'. The Tories will now be able to take us back into the SM & CU without Labour being able to take any credit for it - and it will be presented as a pragmatic approach and 'the right thing to do' by the MSM. Labour will be accused of betraying the country yet again and we'll have another decade of austerity. Nice one, Keir...
 
That's part of the problem for me mate. I won't vote labour again, just because that's what I've always done in the past. Starmer is taking the party in a crappy direction so he can whistle for it. Give me a proper left wing leader and they'll get my vote. Simple as that.

Another tick in the box for the Tories then.
 
Another tick in the box for the Tories then.
Yeah. That's exactly what I said. As if I'd ever vote for them. No point in voting Labour if they're no different to the Tories. You'd just be replacing one turd with another. Put Zarah Sultana in charge and I'll even campaign for them again. They can f*ck right off as things stand. Tory-lite @rse-holes.
 
Those questioning the benefit of immigration would do well to verse themselves on the demographic transition model. I'm not saying it provides the answers to the problems but it certainly gives broader context.
 
Yeah. That's exactly what I said. As if I'd ever vote for them. No point in voting Labour if they're no different to the Tories. You'd just be replacing one turd with another. Put Zarah Sultana in charge and I'll even campaign for them again. They can f*ck right off as things stand. Tory-lite @rse-holes.

It totally depends on your location, but if you were in Vickers' constituency for example, but by not voting for Labour you are enabling the Tories. We can all vote for who we want though, it is a free country (y)
 
Why would it require a super-majority when a straight 50/50 was enough for Brexit?

To get the support for another referendum it would require a consistent super majority in public opinion. If Labour was to launch a referendum to join the EU on a 50/50 split there would be carnage.

We also need to consider what it would take for the EU to let us back in. Why would the EU take the risk if it's likely that we could just end up flip flopping in and out every other parliament?
 
Not sure why we are all obsessed about rejoining the EU atm. To sort the country out we need to get the Tories out first. Rejoin isn't happening for YEARS, certainly not this decade. You are kidding yourselves if you think it will come any sooner.
 
To get the support for another referendum it would require a consistent super majority in public opinion. If Labour was to launch a referendum to join the EU on a 50/50 split there would be carnage.

We also need to consider what it would take for the EU to let us back in. Why would the EU take the risk if it's likely that we could just end up flip flopping in and out every other parliament?
Exactly is doesn’t matter if you get 60%, another referendum would just cause massive division and cults and again.

All I hear and see is people wanting to self harm by saying they wont vote Labour under starmer.

They’d happily not vote him and ‘stick to their principles’ and be culpable to more austerity. It’s a good job it isn’t looking like a close run thing that it probably won’t harm the result

At least we can look forward to anti starmer threads once he’s in power
 
It isn't about going full remainer. It's about having a consistent position on aspects of the EU that weren't ever a part of 'getting Brexit done'. The Tories will now be able to take us back into the SM & CU without Labour being able to take any credit for it - and it will be presented as a pragmatic approach and 'the right thing to do' by the MSM. Labour will be accused of betraying the country yet again and we'll have another decade of austerity. Nice one, Keir...
The tories take that stance they’ll have a massive rebellion, they won’t be allowed to take the U.K. back closer to that without dividing their own party.
 
It isn't about going full remainer. It's about having a consistent position on aspects of the EU that weren't ever a part of 'getting Brexit done'. The Tories will now be able to take us back into the SM & CU without Labour being able to take any credit for it - and it will be presented as a pragmatic approach and 'the right thing to do' by the MSM. Labour will be accused of betraying the country yet again and we'll have another decade of austerity. Nice one, Keir...

There is more chance of Thatcher rising from the grave and taking over as PM as there is of the Tories taking us back into the SM and CU before the next general election. They are splitting and arguing over planning rules... talk of the SM would make the party self destruct (again).
 
Yeah. That's exactly what I said. As if I'd ever vote for them. No point in voting Labour if they're no different to the Tories. You'd just be replacing one turd with another. Put Zarah Sultana in charge and I'll even campaign for them again. They can f*ck right off as things stand. Tory-lite @rse-holes.
I saw recently on the news a 5 year old boy died of pneumonia when it was perfectly treatable because the nhs is on its knees. This winter the tory cost in human life is going to be huge. During the pandemic 10s of thousands died needlessly, nhs workers without ppe are now suffering long Covid and are still not back at work.

Now I don't know about you or anyone else, for that matter, but any vote that isn't aimed at getting rid of tories who murdered that little boy and thousands beside him and then use arguments like "tory lite **** holes" isn't really understanding the situation.

As for Scrote I can't tell whether his argument is one of honesty or policy. Either way I don't care.
 
I saw recently on the news a 5 year old boy died of pneumonia when it was perfectly treatable because the nhs is on its knees. This winter the tory cost in human life is going to be huge. During the pandemic 10s of thousands died needlessly, nhs workers without ppe are now suffering long Covid and are still not back at work.

Now I don't know about you or anyone else, for that matter, but any vote that isn't aimed at getting rid of tories who murdered that little boy and thousands beside him and then use arguments like "tory lite **** holes" isn't really understanding the situation.

As for Scrote I can't tell whether his argument is one of honesty or policy. Either way I don't care.
So those Blairite Labour MPs and NEC members have a lot of blood on their hands then.
 
I didn't say that. I asked if the apologists were now worried they had backed the wrong horse i.e. people on here who've made excuses about his lack of a public position being a smoke-screen for his real intent. Now he has made his intent known it isn't what those apologists said it would be. The argument that Starmer would pivot before declaring anything has been torpedoed. Labour are now in a ridiculous position whereby a new Tory leader can outflank them on Europe and FoM (as opposed to immigration).

Show me where any one of his 'apologists' has claimed Starmer would pivot and declare Labour would take us back into the SM and CU. You won't be able to.
If you think a new Tory leader would suddenly do a 180 on SM, CU and FOM then you're either naive at best or incredibly thick. The Tory Party would implode and cease to exist if that happened.

Why would it require a super-majority when a straight 50/50 was enough for Brexit?

Look what a 52/48 result got us. Years of paralysis. There's no-one to blame for this but Cameron caving into the RWNJs. Another referendum would just bring more of the same for years to come. The SNP agreed that the Independence Referendum would be a once in a generation event. Now they're campaigning for another one and they look stupid.

Just on a more fundamental point. You talk about people 'backing the wrong horse'. I assume you were eligible to vote in the 2020 leadership contest through membership so I'd be interested to know who you did actually vote for and why.
 
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